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That would make too much sense and they probably wouldn't sell as many of the junk shafts that way. I just wish I had the time and money to check out all the newer shafts but the Proforce gold 65 seems to be a great fit for me and it being a high bend with a stiff tip lets me rip it pretty hard and generally always have straight drives. Pushes and pulls are my problem and not the shafts. An occational hook happens when I get too active with the wrists turning over. I also still prefer using the smaller heads 350cc and under. Funny, but I have more directional control from a smaller head than I do from a 450cc head but again it could be I don't have the proforce in the bigger head. Fixing to have an NV 65 stiff installed in the bigger head to see how it handles dispersion and hopefully not lose much distance.

My signature below is being built as we speak. Finally!

OnePutt, I think we can communicate effectively with us being on the same page now but it still doesn't stop it from being confusing for many. Had they used a different terminology I believe it would have been much easier for the whole in general but like you said it is what they use and all we have to do is know how it effects us in selecting shafts. With the newer shafts I believe they can now offer lower torque numbers while still offering longitudinal flexibility to help the slower swingers maintain distance while allowing better dispersion.

Yes, it would be nice if they did that. And it would really be nice if all shafts were tested and rated for flex with the same system. It sure would be nice is all R flex shafts were exactly the same flex, or at least within a small varience. No more guessing if a UST shaft is stiffer or softer than the Aldila shaft you have now. It would be nice, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

Agreed and as you stated it would be nice and perhaps, someday!!!!!

You do realize that it is an impossibility, unless the manufacturers all use the same shafts. That is why PCS guys and/or the serious hobbyiest utilize the shaft profiling data. Major manufacturers separate R flex and S flex based on butt frequency only. This number is only interesting between the same make of shaft. Shafts with a soft butt section will register lower on this scale, however if they have a stiffer tip section they will play stiffer even though their butt flex is the same or lighter. Like torque ratings, butt flex is really not all that interesting in itself. Shaft profiling involves rating flex along the whole length of the shaft, not the butt section only. As noted, you cannot compare one company's Stiff to anothers, much like the torque number. Again, the manufacturers of the OEM clubs you buy has very little to offer in this capacity. Clubmakers in the know will give you a much better idea of how stiff a shaft is likely to play.

Dude, its not the torque, its the shaft profile thats interesting. R flex means nothing. Torque is not interesting as far as playability. Your first set of R flex shafts most likely were softer in the tip section which will cause directional issues because they play softer and probably were not a good fit for your swing. This fact maybe misleading because, in general, stiffer playing shafts tend to have a lower torque...for what thats worth. I'll say this once again, there is no set standard for measuring torque. The fact that you are spouting torsional twisting numbers at me measured on a system that is not regulated means very little. Shaft profile dominates the performance of the shaft, it defintiely overshadows the published torque numbers. This is what clubmakers look at. Quite frankly, if your clubmaker fitted a shaft for you base on torque, I would be more than a little concerned.

Sorry to step on your toes, you seem to think you know more about golf clubs then everyone else on the planet. The fact is, "it's your opinion that torque isn't interesting". It's not MY opinion, just yours. As for torque rating, I have no problems measureing shafts for torque, and most every one measures what it is stated as being. So that means most of the shaft makers are doing it the same way I am.

As for all shafts being the same in terms of flex, there is no reason every shaft maker couldn't buy and use the same machine to measure shaft flex. Then they could label the shaft with the data from the same machine every other shaft maker uses. And then all shafts could be pretty much the same in terms of flex. They could measure overall flex, tip flex, bend points. and other data if they wanted to.
You mention shaft profile information. WHY COULDN'T EVERY COMPANY BUY AND USE THE SAME SHAFT PROFILE MACHINE ???? That would allow each shaft maker to label their shafts with numbers from the same machine. That would end the problem and it wouldn't be hard to do. Not at all.

It's easy to tell you build clubs, or work for someone that does. But just because you don't find torque numbers interesting, doesn't mean I'm wrong. It only means torque isn't interesting to YOU. You mentioned butt stiffest. Fact is most club makers use a frequenceny meter to measure shaft stiffness. And since frequency meters only measure butt stiffness, I have no use for freq meters to measure the stiffness of a shaft.
As for my shafts, I'm not as STUPID as you seem to think I am.I didn't pick them based only on torque. I pick a shaft based on weight, flex, bend point, tip stiffness, and how it works for me when I try it on a launch monitor. I do limit my choices to only shafts with a torque rating of less then 3.5*. I see no reason to play a shaft with a high torque rating, as I see no good reason why a shaft should have a lot of torque. High torque serves no useful function. I"ve read some reason why low torque shafts aren't needed, but I've never read a GOOD reason why low torque is bad, and high or mid torque is better. Lots of nonsense, but no facts.

Good walk

And it would really be nice if all shafts were tested and rated for flex with the same system

You seem to have missed this. Fact is every shaft maker "Could" measure their shafts on the same machine, if they all had the same machine. And it wouldn't be that hard to build a machine to measure flex. be it butt stiffness or overall flex. If every shaft maker would label their shaft by overall flex, it would be a good start. Might not be perfect, but it would be a lot better than what we have now. Fact is if all R flex shaft had the same overall stiffness, then things like tip stiffness and bend points could be used to pick a good shaft for the golfer. As it is now, a golfer has no idea if an Aldila NV65 will play stiffer ro softer than a Prolaunch Blue of the same flex rating. And there is really no excuse for this.

I'll say this one more time, in simple terms. YOU CANNOT COMPARE TORQUE NUMBERS BETWEEN DIFFERENT MANUFACTURERS. YOU CAN'T. STOP DOING IT, THESE NUMBERS ARE IRRELEVANT.

Ok, got that out of my system. I stated that torque primarily is a feel parameter. This is true, in general, and the shafts you are comparing have similar profiles. Contradicting me by saying steel shafts with really low torque numbers don't feel harsh. This is because of their soft profile. Steel wood shafts, particularly DG, play really soft -- agian, the profile. This is what you are feeling. Profile is a 100-fold more interesting than torque these days.

I'll say this one more time, in simple terms. YOU CANNOT COMPARE TORQUE NUMBERS BETWEEN DIFFERENT MANUFACTURERS. YOU CAN'T. STOP DOING IT, THESE NUMBERS ARE IRRELEVANT.

One last time for me. Maybe you can't do it, but I CAN. I have been doing it and I'll continue to do it as long as the numbers I get with my torque arm are the same as what the shaft is rated as. Been doing it for 4 years, and it works quite well. The numbers would only be irrelent if YOU don't know how to use them.

Again, you can't explain why steel shafts with low torque don't feel harsh. You claim it's because steel shafts for woods all play soft. Well what about stiff flex steel shafts for woods. or X stiff shafts for irons? X stiff steel shafts have a torque of around 1.8*, which is pretty darn low. And I've never seen where X stiff steel iron shafts feel harsh. I have a set of irons with X stiff shafts, and they don't feel any harsher than a set I've got with R flex shafts. Stiffer? YES. Harsher ? NO. You keep talking about feel. And I'm talking about perfromance. Feel is totally a matter of opinion, something you can't measure with a machine or out on the course. Performance is something we can measure, and it's something we can see out on the course. You can play all the high torque shafts you want, and feel happy. I'll play all the lower torque shafts I want, and go by performance. You love the word "Interesting" quite a lot. What I think is "Interesting" is how well a shaft performs. Let's see, what's more interesting? FEEL or PERFORMANCE ? Not even a close. Performance is much more "Interesting" than Feel. At least that's my opinion, and pretty much what every golfer I know is interested in the same thing. PERFORMANCE.