So, between the money you lost on the resale of the Titleists, and the money you paid for the OEDs, it cost you almost as much as the Titleists cost you to start with? You could've had the Titleists fitted to you, and actually been better off money-wise, plus you would've had a set with some resale value.
To the clubmakers in our group, that is NOT meant as disrespect to you. I'm merely pointing out the obvious. If you've bought a set of irons that aren't what you expected, you can go to a good clubmaker and have them fitted, and still come out to the good.
I'm going to guess on some numbers here, I've been to the Second Swing shops and see ebay on occasion, there are highs and lows, just stating some real world "averages". New Titleist's $900 (steel or forged?)? New Wishon's $550 (forged)? Resale on Titleist $500? $600? Wishon's $250 (easily) Still looks like $300 minimum loss either way to me, and the Wishon's would have a quality shaft fiited to you from the start. How much does it cost to get rid of the $4 shaft on the Titlesist and put on a quality shaft, like the Wishon club had in the first place?
No disrespect taken at all, I too, am pointing out the obvious. This poor guy bought a set of irons that he "thought" was best for him according to Titleist.
I'm going to guess on some numbers here, I've been to the Second Swing shops and see ebay on occasion, there are highs and lows, just stating some real world "averages". New Titleist's $900 (steel or forged?)? New Wishon's $550 (forged)? Resale on Titleist $500? $600? Wishon's $250 (easily) Still looks like $300 minimum loss either way to me, and the Wishon's would have a quality shaft fiited to you from the start. How much does it cost to get rid of the $4 shaft on the Titlesist and put on a quality shaft, like the Wishon club had in the first place?
No disrespect taken at all, I too, am pointing out the obvious. This poor guy bought a set of irons that he "thought" was best for him according to Titleist.
Actually, he bought a set that he thought was best for him after actually hitting a set of demos.
True story: A friend of mine, who's making his return to the game after several years not playing, decides to buy a new set of clubs to replace his old ones. He goes to a clubmaker and has a set custom made for him. The problem is that this particular clubmaker is unscrupulous, and uses the cheapest components he can get to put the set together. Instead of this being a positive experience for his customer, it's now a reason to go out and buy the OEM clubs.
I know that this isn't going to happen with a reputable clubmaker often, if at all. A bad reputation is too hard to change once it's earned. A good clubmaker is going to use high quality components, and take the time to do things right. The clubmaker is, most probably, going to build a set as if he were going to be using them himself.
Earlier in the thread, the "Big Brother" clubs were mentioned. Those, along with the TM clones of the time, were the demise of a few golf shops here. People bought them, played them, realized they were junk, and went OEM because they no longer trusted component clubmakers. I'm sure that happened in quite a few places.
Many people don't understand the difference between "clone" and component, and it winds up hurting the custom clubmaker. I know people like that. They honestly believe there is TM, Callaway, Titleist, Cobra, Ping, Bridgestone, etc., and clones of those. They don't understand that there are quality original components out there.
It's my opinion that clubmakers shouldn't turn down the opportunity to custom fit an OEM set for someone, or make remarks that make people who buy OEMs feel stupid. There's good money in custom fitting that overpriced set of irons that John Q. Public was convinced he needed to improve his game.
Actually, he bought a set that he thought was best for him after actually hitting a set of demos.
True story: A friend of mine, who's making his return to the game after several years not playing, decides to buy a new set of clubs to replace his old ones. He goes to a clubmaker and has a set custom made for him. The problem is that this particular clubmaker is unscrupulous, and uses the cheapest components he can get to put the set together. Instead of this being a positive experience for his customer, it's now a reason to go out and buy the OEM clubs.
I know that this isn't going to happen with a reputable clubmaker often, if at all. A bad reputation is too hard to change once it's earned. A good clubmaker is going to use high quality components, and take the time to do things right. The clubmaker is, most probably, going to build a set as if he were going to be using them himself.
Earlier in the thread, the "Big Brother" clubs were mentioned. Those, along with the TM clones of the time, were the demise of a few golf shops here. People bought them, played them, realized they were junk, and went OEM because they no longer trusted component clubmakers. I'm sure that happened in quite a few places.
Many people don't understand the difference between "clone" and component, and it winds up hurting the custom clubmaker. I know people like that. They honestly believe there is TM, Callaway, Titleist, Cobra, Ping, Bridgestone, etc., and clones of those. They don't understand that there are quality original components out there.
It's my opinion that clubmakers shouldn't turn down the opportunity to custom fit an OEM set for someone, or make remarks that make people who buy OEMs feel stupid. There's good money in custom fitting that overpriced set of irons that John Q. Public was convinced he needed to improve his game.
Excellent post and I agree with you whole heartedly!! There are bad club builders and fitters out there too.... bad eggs in any industry. It only takes 1 to ruin it for all as the saying goes. If somebody already owns a set a OEM's I would not flinch to reshaft them for the golfer. Very good move on there part. I do it a couple of times a year myself, heck they already own the clubs, why not.
The statement, "or make remarks that make people who buy OEMs feel stupid"..... if by chance I came across that way, I want to truly apologize to all. In any buyer/seller relationship/industry, if the seller even remotely comes across as making the customer feel "stupid", the seller is usually dead in the water. My job, as a custom builder/fitter, is to put the best clubs in the guys hands, for him, not the masses. There are so many quality components out there now, if I didn't point out to the end user that he can get something equal (and sometimes better) than an OEM, for 1/2 to 2/3's the cost, I would be disservicing him.
Just last night I had a local guy called me that has a set of Cleveland TA2's. He was "fitted" in the Cleveland Tour van, late last year. All clubs were built 2* upright. Almost every "custom fit" OEM I see, has been built 2* upright. Just don't get it. He is still hooking most of his shots. Anyhow, this guy is ready to trash the TA's and starts talking to me about Wishon. I listened to what he had to say, and just proposed that I re-fit him for loft and lie with his existing clubs. A good clubbuilder will always put the customer first......... good word of mouth advertising will reap big rewards down the road.
I've been playing a long time (my first clubs were a mish-mash that included a Top Flite driver with a pounded leather insert that had to be lightly oiled weekly, and a wooden shafted putter made in 1894). The only improvements in clubs in the last fifty years are: composite shafts; oversized "woods"; and perimeter weighted irons. Everything else is a fraction of one percent better than last year. The outrageously expensive clubs are very good at making money for the manufacturers and dealers. If you're going to be a touring pro or play at the top of the amateur ranks, that fraction will make a difference. By the way, in 1997 & 1998 I played with a Knight driver and 3 wood (cost: $29 each). They took me to match play in the USGA Senior Amateur both years.
I've been playing a long time (my first clubs were a mish-mash that included a Top Flite driver with a pounded leather insert that had to be lightly oiled weekly, and a wooden shafted putter made in 1894). The only improvements in clubs in the last fifty years are: composite shafts; oversized "woods"; and perimeter weighted irons. Everything else is a fraction of one percent better than last year. The outrageously expensive clubs are very good at making money for the manufacturers and dealers. If you're going to be a touring pro or play at the top of the amateur ranks, that fraction will make a difference. By the way, in 1997 & 1998 I played with a Knight driver and 3 wood (cost: $29 each). They took me to match play in the USGA Senior Amateur both years.
Nice job Biilyg!! Hats off to you on your accomplishments. You are living proof to something that was mentioned earlier, this thread or another one, I do not recall. In not so many words, a good/great golfer can play with almost anything. That is why custom fitting by someone that knows what they are doing is so critical for the "average" golfer, unless of course they are about to take a series of lessons (not one lesson) and apply what they learn, as their swing will most likely change. Quality fitting can and usually will improve the average golfer's game, it won't put them on any tour.
When I fit an average golfer, I address all of the characteristics of fitting. When I fit a very low/scratch golfer, the bulk of the conversation and experimentation involves usually invloves feel. The scratch golfer's mechanics are down pat, not your average golfer's. The feedback I get from a scratch golfer and and the average golfer is like night and day.
A method is to go to a brick an mortar golf shop and demo OEM clubs and then get some used one on EBay for a good price.
So take advantage of the Pros Knowledge and time and buy else where, just remember that when you need you local shop to properly fit the clubs you bought on ebay or need a club repaired on the spot. Us shop owners don't forget who jerked us around. Cheers
Same thing in the offroad motorcycle world. Lots of guys go to the retail shops, try on helmets or some type of apparel,
then order the same thing online, much cheaper.
Karma will bite those who cheat. Do you believe?!! "Yes yes, I believe!!"
So take advantage of the Pros Knowledge and time and buy else where, just remember that when you need you local shop to properly fit the clubs you bought on ebay or need a club repaired on the spot. Us shop owners don't forget who jerked us around. Cheers
That's exactly why I have a rather pricey ($75-$100) fitting fee. I get paid, up front for my time and knowledge. If a purchase is made, 100% applied toward the purchase. Helps to prevent me from wasting my time with those that want something for nothing.
"..........All clubs were built 2* upright. Almost every "custom fit" OEM I see, has been built 2* upright.........."
You are soooooo right. For some reason, an upright lie has an aura of being a better fit for all.
"...........A good clubbuilder will always put the customer first......... good word of mouth advertising will reap big rewards down the road............"
"..........All clubs were built 2* upright. Almost every "custom fit" OEM I see, has been built 2* upright.........."
You are soooooo right. For some reason, an upright lie has an aura of being a better fit for all.
"...........A good clubbuilder will always put the customer first......... good word of mouth advertising will reap big rewards down the road............"
Good for you!
Thanks Slick, you noticed too!
My personal opinion, nothing to back it with............ the reason OEM fittings recommend a 2* upright so often is because, as we know, the majority of the golfers looking to improve usually fade or slice, granted mostly woods, but irons fairly dominant too. Hooking is easier to fix (usually) than slicing, and when a slicer starts to hit draws or hooks, they feel like they have accomplished something. I suspect an OEM fitting resulting in a power fade or slice would be the kiss of death to them. JMO.
I agree with B weitzel Top name brand components such as wishon and KZG along with SMT and a few others are better than the OEM clubs. The shafts you get in the Drivers unless you pay a premium for them are not very good. The flo on them is horrible but they brain wash the consumers to believe they are better. If VJay hit one of the stock Taylor made drivers he would destroy the facein no time, they don't play the same clubs you hear them advertising.
Go to a PCS Class A clubmaker and get fit on a launch monitor and find out what a real custom fit club is all about. Another source to check out is Tom Wishons newest book. THE SEARCH FOR THE PERFECT GOLF CLUB it tell about all the myths the OEM companies preach and what you should look for in a club fitter
That's exactly why I have a rather pricey ($75-$100) fitting fee. I get paid, up front for my time and knowledge. If a purchase is made, 100% applied toward the purchase. Helps to prevent me from wasting my time with those that want something for nothing.
I have to agree. We have fee's that go from $50-150 depending on what they want in a fitting/lesson...etc. While I like my job it doesn't come for free to golfers because of the advantages some would take from you.
February 4th, 2006, 11:06 AM
"Yes yes, I believe!!"
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