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To this day, i still don't think Jean did anything wrong on the last hole at Carnoustie.

tee shot -- he hit driver. he built a 3 shot lead by hitting driver. it's obviously the club he felt the most comfortable with and had the most confidence in so why wouldn't you go with that one?

2nd shot -- he picked a club that would get over the creek. if he got over it the tournament is over because there is no way it takes him 5 to get down. And he did get over but got and awful bounce off the stands and back in the water. If it stays up in the stands he takes a drop and wins. once the ball went in the creek he had no chance since the only drop was in knee-deep rough.

People always say "he could have hit Wedge off the tee and still won" -- well when has anyone in the history of golf ever done that?

what do you guys think?

^^^ i like the commercial I saw of him trying to make 6 with a putter there and he actually did it, hahahaha he got unlucky and i almost think it was fate, hitting that piece of metal 2 inches long on the grandstands, if it would of went in, he would have gotten relief drop near the green, and the championship is won

If you look at his third shot to get over the water from the rough you will find your reason. He didn't finish the shot as though he was trying a knock down. Out of that deep rough he should have picked a club a swung through hard ala Tiger or Phil does from similar lies. When I look at that shot, that was the biggest reason for his loss.

When his drive wound up in short rough, right then he should be thinking... "...3 shot lead.... layup in fairway.... hit center of green... 2 putt bogey.... win by 2. He got lucky not to be in deep with the tee shot, and since his swing was obviously getting a bit tense, he should have used that that 3 shot lead, not wasted it like he did. The driver off the tee was a small mistake and he got away with it. The rest of the hole was just pure bad judgment.... the classic amateur mistake of letting his ego make his decisions for him.

To answer the OP's question.... yes, many players have gone into the final hole with a lead and played safe. I've seen Irons hit on the tee on a 400+ yard hole (where the player had used driver all through the tournament) because that was the safe play and bogey still wins the tournament.

I seriously doubt that Van de Velde will ever be in that position again, because from the Golf Channel interfiew, it doesn't appear that he learned anything from his blunder.

I read this article on Van de Velde yesterday:

Ailing Van de Velde 'sad' he won't return to Carnoustie - USATODAY.com

the truth is, he should have hit 2 or 3 iron of the tee, and iron and a wedge and 2-putt to win. there is no shame in winning with a bogey or a double. tiger has done that plenty of times. there is no glory in winning a tournament the way jean tried to, history does not show HOW someone won. the same thing with phil at the us open. he should've hit iron off the tee.

do you think anyone gave tiger a hard time for winning with a bogey?

it's not how, it's how many.

We have a lot of couch pros on this forum.

nah, i'm a 3 handicapper and i'm 16 so i get out alot, i just know the whole story about JVDV

I'd trade my job with the real pros but hey, at least on the couch, I can't make a mistake!

That's a good one. It would be interesting to think what a lot of us would do in a similar position. Not that we'll ever have the Claret Jug pretty much in hand but the fun thing about golf is we all have our personal goals.

For example, someone trying to break 80 for the first time. Let's say, all you need is a double bogey to make 79. Do you take out driver on the 18th hole? Or do you hit driver and try to smash that barrier of 80 and try and make 77 with par?

It's not the same thing but I suppose a lot of us might try and get that 77 instead of guaranteeing 78 or 79 with the smart play.

I'm thinking heart palpitations, cotton mouth, and a completely blank mind incapable of processing a thought.



Pretty good program on TGC tonight featuring JVD and several major champions (Nicklaus, Strange) and others chiming in with taped commentary.

The Drive - yeah, not the club Jack or Tiger would have pulled. How many times have we seen Tiger bunt it down the middle and make a bogey on the last when he has a big margin? Plenty, he knows the only thing that matters is don't go OB or get wet, avoiding a huge number is all that matters. Then again how many dozen times has he been in that position? JVD was playing well, and so he thought "I'm looking at a 70 yard fairway, I've hit the driver great all week, why not?"

The 2 Iron from the rough - OK, tee shot went right of right - over the burn and closer to the 17th fairway than the 18th. The OBVIOUS play to everyone (at least those with 20-20 hind sight) is just wedge it back to the fairway. True enough, but JVD thought, "OK, 185 to clear the burn, 200 to front edge, if I hit a long iron anywhere near the hole, I have taken the water completely out of play"

You can disagree with what JVD was thinking - and I would - but at least he was being semi logical up to this point.

He got two very, very bad breaks on that blocked iron. First it doesn't go into the grandstand....it doesn't hit the padded walls or a spectator or go through the bleachers....it hits a 2 inch pipe/stanchon....and after careening way in the air and back wards, it hits the top of the retaining wall of the burn, another high bounce back wards, and it lands in the deep hay - he's dead. Now he has to play sideways, he cannot play toward the green.

The rest of his explanation is.....well, inexplicable. He is worried about going long or left (both are OB) so he decelerated on the shot from the deep rough out of a horrible lie. All the more reason to play sideways would seem the logical conclusion. But I followed what he was saying up until that third shot into the water.

I almost forgot until I watched tonight - after he went n the water (3rd shot), dropped (4th), and knocked it into the bunker (5th), Craig Parry holed out from the sand. JVD said that was the cruelest irony of all - the very shot he now needs, a hole out from the sand to win it, immediately before he has to hit his own shot.

Still, give him credit. That was a clutch 6 footer he holed for his triple.



Great sequence of photos and play by play here:

At the 1999 open, frenchman Jean Van de Velde needed a 6 to win. Instead, he made a 7, and history.

wow, check out all the references from "collapse at carnoustie". you don't have an opinion, you're just using others'.

Just so you know, and don't have to make this reference anymore, driver was the only club in Phil's bag that would reach that fairway on 18. He said so himself. It was never even an option to hit anything else. What he wishes he had done differently was the second shot.

Same with Van de Velde. He has said that the first or the second shot, he would do again the same way. But the third was not smart, and he would change that.

so what. he couldve hit an iron short, hit an iron down the fairway, hit the green and 2 putt for a bogey and he wouldve won.

because he was nervous he sliced it and because it was a driver it was exaggerated. he could've hit 3 wood or anything else but because he hit driver he went way left, than he tried too much to get it towards the green that he hit a tree.

it's not a reference, it's the truth and players have done it numerous times to win.

So, he should have purposely hit a club that he knows is going to go in the rough because he can't reach the fairway with anything but driver? That would have taken some guts....

Driver was the correct play for Phil. He hit a bad shot and then compounded it with a judgment error on the next shot. Punch back to the fairway, hit your next shot on and two putt to get in the playoff. Heck, with his putting stroke, he may have still made four if he could have put the third shot on the green.

As for JVDV - sometimes you just have to chalk things up to a higher power....