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I've heard that good golfers prefer fast greens because they give a true roll. But I'm a bogey golfer (happy to break 90), and I'm a wretched putter on fast greens (e.g., at a good country club) because I can't get the speed right. Usually I play medium-speed greens, where I'm a so-so putter.

But give me slow greens (e.g, a city-maintained course), and it seems I can knock them in from anywhere. Maybe it's mental: I putt with greater confidence, knowing that it's not going to roll 8' by the hole. Or maybe there's a logical reason why it's easier to make putts or get them close on slow greens, at least for bogey golfers.

Thoughts, anybody?

Any green where I cannot get a consistent distance (roll) for a given 'pendulum' stroke (how far back I pull the putter, and let it fall) is going to be terrible. This can be either too slow, or too fast greens.

What I mean by this is - I gauge my distance by how far BACK I pull the putter, which generally equate to a rolling distance on the green. So....pulling the putter 3" back from the all yields a 3 foot putt, 5" behind the ball yields a 5 foot putt, 7" behind the ball yields a 8 foot putt, and so on........

When the greens are either too slow OR too fast, I find it very, very difficult to judge distance in this manner, so I find myself compensating and adjusting to the green speeds/distance. So - it's equally irritating to be either too fast or too slow, as it's almost impossible to judge.

If i had to make the choice - I do find it easier to putt on slower greens, but both conditions are equally as annoying.

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Slower greens are easier to putt for a couple of reasons that I can think of. The first is mental, as you mentioned, because you have no fear of running it so far past the hole that you don't worry about the next putt. The second thing is that slower greens don't take the breaks on them that faster greens do, so again there's no fear of the putt getting away from you. If the greens are fast and the hole locations are not impossible, I prefer greens that ALMOST put the 'fear of god' in you! (Greens stimping about 9.5 - 10 fall in this category for the average golfer). I prefer relatively fast greens where I can tap the 4-6' putt as opposed to ramming it in. The best rule of thumb that I've tried to instill in my guys changing cups is put it in a place that you could 2 putt from 20' away from most any angle 85-90% of the time. That rule pretty much eliminates ridiculous pin placements that are either too close to the collar or on a too severe slope given the speed of the green. If I have time, I've been known to carry my putter around and putt from various angles to see if these directions are being followed. It also helps if the guy changing the cups plays golf. Believe me, a lot of times the cup changer is not a golfer.

IF-and I emphasize the word IF- IF the course is set up fairly for the average golfer (15 to 20 hcp - i.e. a bogie golfer), fast greens will limit tucking pins or putting them on severe slopes. In that way, they might actually be easier to get closer to on an approach shot and perhaps easier to putt because they have to be in a more level area. If the pin placements are not adjusted to take green speed in consideration, then the course is not being set up for the average golfer, plain and simple, which might explain your difficulties. Not saying that in of itself is 'unfair', but clearly faster greens grabs your attention and brings in more strategy, like making sure your good shots are hit to the green to the most desireable place and making sure your missed shots give plenty of room to hit a decent chip. These are things you have to think of before you hit your approach - tell yourself something like "if I hit this good it'll leave me a good chance at the putt, but if I miss, make sure I miss it where I at least have a chance for an up and down." Many times it's not simply the speed of the greens that cause problems, but it's the angle that you have left yourself that puts you in a position to face a difficult putt. I speak from experience - I've short sided myself more times than I should!

Faster greens will favor the golfer who can think their way around the course - I think course management is the most critical part of playing, compared to hitting the ball any old place. Slower greens favors feeding the ego, and that has its place too, but I prefer challenging the golfer to think at least a little b4 they wail away.

One tip on faster greens, particuarily downhill putts, is to intentially hit the ball on the toe of the putter and make your normal stroke - hope that helps!

SamT: Your system makes sense. Reminds me of some advice I once heard: Take the putter back 1" for every 1' the ball has to go. But as you point out, green speed can mess that up. Another problem for me (not for you) is that I don't have a good idea of how far back a certain arm motion takes the putter. When it comes to the actual stroke (as opposed to the set-up), I go purely on feel and intuition, which scares the heck out of me since I'm a "mechanic" (not a feel player) when it comes to the full swing. It's amazing to me that I don't 3-putt four times per round. But back to you: Have you tried using different putters for different green speeds? I've heard that some players will use a light putter on fast greens and a heavy putter on slow greens (or is it the other way around?) so they don't have to recalibrate their pendulum swing when playing on greens that are faster or slower than what they're used to.

greenguy: That "rule of thumb" you use sounds very good. Will have to check if my home course seems to do the same thing. And your point about the relationship between hole location and green speed was great; thanks. I've previously heard the advice to actually study the green complex before wailing away at the approach shot, so you can aim for a spot (e.g., downhill of the hole) that will give you a good putt or a reasonable up-and-down opportunity, but it's always good to hear that one again! Can't tell ya how many times I've hit a green then walked up there and said, "Wow, this isn't such a good place to be on this green!" Anyway, really appreciate your perspective; I learn a lot reading your posts. Hey, is it true what that magazine ad used to say: "The greenskeeper knows that tears are the best fertilizer"?

Personally, I'll take slower greens than faster greens. With faster greens, I think three footers are that much tougher because there'll be more break and you won't be able to make as confident a stroke. More like a tap. There is a point where greens can get too slow, though. Like when you have a putt from 30 feet and you have to take a good whack just to get it to the hole. I don't encounter greens like that too often but it certainly is annoying.

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Well after this morning, that might be true. Just got the course close to being decent after the spring monsoons, then we got dump on here in lower MI last nite and now the bunkers are once again all washed out, fairways are too wet to mow, and some areas are completely flooded. I think that a few choice swear words probably "fertilize" the course better than tears!

I believe that a "tap" of a 4 to 6-foot putt isn't really a putt at all. If the putt isn't a legitimate back-and-through stroke, the greens are too fast and a perversion of the original intent of the game. The idea of a closely mowed area for putting is to provide a surface free of impediments that would unfairly throw a stroke at the cup off line. Since a putt is considered a stroke, I feel that it should involve more of a movement than touching the ball to get it started and letting gravity and the grain of the grass take over. I count my "taps" as putts, but I'm not very happy about it.

I'm afraid that modern golf has taken a wrong turn as a result of the example of Augusta National and made fast greens the standard of excellence in a golf course, and that the competition for the fastest greens has gotten completely out of hand.

I know that I'm swimming against the tide with this one, but I want putts to look like strokes and not some nervous tic or gentle touch. OK, I'm ready for the flak.

Jim, - here's some more thoughts that I use:

"Tick-Tock" - on a pendulum putting motion, the same tempo/timing should be used on ALL putts, no matter how far back you take the clubhead back. This will lead to more consistency. So.....(without hitting a ball yet) start with small putts, take the putterhead back 3" or so, think "tick".......as the putterhead comes through the hitting area and to your left, think "tock".

Still without hitting a ball, the "tick-tock" tempo should be the same - so.....gradually increase how far back/thru you take the putterhead, thinking "tick-tock", every time. Periodically, I'll do this starting with short putts (without hitting a ball), and gradually increasing the backswing until I'm hitting long putts, then gradually back to short putts again. Imagine a grandfather clock, with the big pendulum on the bottom - "tick-tock", "tick-tock", it goes back and forth at the same tempo every time, which is what you putterhead should do as well, both for short AND long putts. (the Time it takes to go back/thru is the same for both short and long putts)

When you do this with a real ball, you'll notice that how far back you take the putterhead directly correlates to a distance the ball goes (3', 6', 9', etc. etc.), and when you hit the putting green, that will help you gauge your distance. Remember to hit practice balls on flat, uphill, and downhill putts, to gauge how far the ball goes for a given distance you take the putterhead back.

I hope that helps somewhat.

BTW - I tried the heavier/lighter/insert/no insert putter thing, it didn't work, and that's too many variables IMO. Stick with a putter you like, and work hard on distance control, that will get you home!

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You'll get no flak from me. Everyone has their opinion on what the ideal speed should be. I prefer letting the contours of the putting surface dictate on how fast they should get. And of course, pin placements have to account for the speed in order to make the hole playable. For example, I'll mention a couple of courses we all know as a reference. Courses with a lot of undulations (Augusta) should theoretically have slower greens than a course without the contours (Bethpage Black). If you took a poll, I would bet most golfers would have the perception that Augusta has the fastest greens. But I bet there are many courses that you see on the tube that are in fact faster - there may even be some upscale public courses that you can play that are close to what they face at Augusta sans the undulations. Augusta National never publishes what their greens stimp, but I bet it's not much more than 11 (if that), but it seems faster because of the undulations. And the mowing equipment could not mow them much tighter than that to have them much faster because they would scalp them mowing up and down the slopes on the putting surface. The reason I believe they don't announce what the greens stimp is so there in NOT a competition around the country to put undue pressure on other supts to have their greens llike Augusta. But certain courses still think that their greens should be like what they see on TV - it doesn't stop the competion.

During the Open at Bethpage, they said the greens were between 14-15 on the stimp. I wasn't there, but I have a hard time believing they could get them that fast - a gust of wind could move the ball resting on the green. But maybe they did get them that fast - they certainly could have them faster than 11-12 because there was very little movement on the greens.

Is there competition for the fastest greens? You bet! Most golfers want to play fast greens, even if they don't have the game for it. From what most golfers communicate to me is I can't get them fast enough. Out of 10 golfers, eight would say to keep them 10+ on the stimp, one would say they don't care because they're there for the beer and one would say slow them down. So that's the direction golf has been going in for at least 20 years, for better or worse.

I'm not sure who's "logic" I'm following along with, but I prefer a little faster than average, but mostly a good "normal" speed. I don't want to have to hammer a 5 footer on a flat green to fight through the grain, and I don't want to have a 5 footer lip out and leave me with a 6 or 7 footer coming back. And I absolutely can't stand the courses that don't give any break at all with the pins. I played a course in Indianapolis a couple months ago, and I'd say 13 or 14 of the pins were on the side of a hill or at the edge of a fairly steady drop. I'm not the steadiest of putters, but 3 putts from 4 or so feet shouldn't happen, especially when all 3 are 4 footers.

The local course I play most regularly (a Robert Trent Jones, Sr. design!) *finally* gave a few breaks with its pins, keeping them on fairly level spots. They have alot of undulations, and they always seem to tuck them right at the edge of a big break. Sure it tests your putting game, but you should also be rewarded for hitting within say, 6-8 feet of the hole. If you hit an approach that close, you shouldnt have a quick side-hill putt to finish off. I love reading breaks and putting down hills from a distance, but when I'm close, I want to rely on my OWN stroke, more than the speed/slope of the green I'm on.

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I mentioned this earlier - many times the guy changing the cup doesn't play the game or doesn't play enough to understand when a certain hole location is over the top - especially on greens with a lot of movement. I hate to say this 'cause I maybe opening pandora's box, but it wouldn't hurt to mention your observations on the pin placements (if this is a constant problem, not just a one day event) to the pro shop and have your concerns communicated to the supt. If you approach it in a manner like "I really like this course and am a regular customer, but one thing I've noticed is the pin placements are sometimes right next to slopes" and give a couple of examples. Sometimes the pro shop staff might even go out a take a look at the hole in question and contact the supt if they agree with you - I know it's happened to me and I have no problem with that. Supts want to keep the golfer happy and LEGITIMATE complaints should be addressed. If the holes are constantly placed next to big breaks, I would take your comments as constructive criticism and provide more training to the people changing the cups. Your complaint is not unreasonable to have addressed.