Yeah, I remember a tour pro got penalized when his caddie raked the fairway bunker when he just got done hitting out of it and into the greenside bunker.
But Tiger being Tiger, it will probably be overlooked. Otherwise, he would be DQ'ed for signing an incorrect score card.
Watching att. Did Tiger lose a stroke for grounding his club in the sand while being in the sand?
Did you mean his angry strike at the sand after his shot from bunker 1 (that ended up in bunker 2)? I am not a rules expert, but I think that this is allowed, unless bunker 1 = bunker 2!
Did you mean his angry strike at the sand after his shot from bunker 1 (that ended up in bunker 2)? I am not a rules expert, but I think that this is allowed, unless bunker 1 = bunker 2!
If this is indeed what happened (I'm not watching so I haven't seen what happened), this is exactly what happened to Rory McIlroy during the Masters. They did not assess a penalty because they felt that it wasn't Rory's intent to test the conditions, it was just frustration.
Nevertheless, I think it is nonsense to interpret the rules that way. The rules are written to remove intent from them as completely as possible. That's why when you take your stance and ground the club, and the ball moves for whatever reason (wind, rain, your foot, an elephant stamping by), it is deemed to be your fault. There is no intent in the rule at all. It is 100% whether the ball moved or not and whether you have taken a stance or not. The rule about the sand should be the same, no intent about whether you wanted to hit the sand or not. Touch the sand = penalty, whether you intended or not.
The rules are written to remove intent from them as completely as possible. That's why when you take your stance and ground the club, and the ball moves for whatever reason (wind, rain, your foot, an elephant stamping by), it is deemed to be your fault. There is no intent in the rule at all. It is 100% whether the ball moved or not and whether you have taken a stance or not. The rule about the sand should be the same, no intent about whether you wanted to hit the sand or not. Touch the sand = penalty, whether you intended or not.
Time to pull out the rulebook.
Quote:
13-1. General
The ball must be played as it lies, except as otherwise provided in the Rules.
(Ball at rest moved - see Rule 18.)
13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play
A player must not improve or allow to be improved:
· the position or lie of his ball,
· the area of his intended stance or swing,
· his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
· the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:
· pressing a club on the ground,
· moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
· creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
· removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
· removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:
· in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
· in fairly taking his stance,
· in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
· in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground (Rule 11-1) or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or
· on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard - see Rule 13-4.
Rule 13-2 clearly negates your assertion that ball movement is an absolute...absolutely. Even in Rule 18 we see:
Quote:
18-2. By Player, Partner, Caddie or Equipment
a. General
When a player's ball is in play, if:
(i) the player, his partner or either of their caddies lifts or moves it, touches it purposely (except with a club in the act of addressing it) or causes it to move except as permitted by a Rule, or
(ii)equipment of the player or his partner causes the ball to move,the player incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the ball is moved, it must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.
Under the Rules there is no penalty if a player accidentally causes his ball to move in the following circumstances:
· In searching for a ball in a hazard covered by loose impediments or sand, for a ball in an obstruction or abnormal ground condition or for a ball believed to be in water in a water hazard - Rule 12-1
· In repairing a hole plug or ball mark - Rule 16-1c
· In measuring - Rule 18-6
· In lifting a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-1
· In placing or replacing a ball under a Rule - Rule 20-3a
· In removing a loose impediment on the putting green - Rule 23-1
· In removing movable obstructions - Rule 24-1.
b. Ball Moving After Address
If a player's ball in playmoves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.
Quote:
13-3. Building Stance
A player is entitled to place his feet firmly in taking his stance, but he must not build a stance.
This rule leaves more to interpretation, imo...we see the pros wiggling their feet back and forth, bouncing up and down, etc. to "place their feet firmly" in a bunker but, imo, they often take it too far. To me, very much wiggling of the feet constitutes building a stance and testing the conditions of the hazard.
Quote:
13-4. Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.
Exceptions:
1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling, in removing an obstruction, in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or
(b) places his clubs in a hazard.
2. After making the stroke, if the ball is still in the hazard or has been lifted from thehazard and may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard, provided nothing is done to breach Rule 13-2 with respect to his next stroke. If the ball is outside the hazard after the stroke, the player may smooth sand or soil in the hazard without restriction.
3. If the player makes a stroke from a hazard and the ball comes to rest in another hazard, Rule 13-4a does not apply to any subsequent actions taken in the hazard from which the stroke was made.
Note: At any time, including at address or in the backward movement for the stroke, the player may touch, with a club or otherwise, any obstruction, any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course or any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing.
Penalty For Breach of Rule:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.
Clearly, Rule 13-4 allows for exceptions...the intent of the rules is to prevent a player from intentionally improving his lie or improving the intended line of play. The rules were never intended to rule out happenstance. Note: happenstance ≠ rub of the green.
If a player's ball in playmoves after he has addressed it (other than as a result of a stroke), the player is deemed to have moved the ball and incurs a penalty of one stroke. The ball must be replaced, unless the movement of the ball occurs after the player has begun the stroke or the backward movement of the club for the stroke and the stroke is made.
There is no quibbling about whether the wind blew it, or the wet turf settled or a gnat landed on the ball and moved it or if the player moved it. Once you have taken your address -- defined to be BOTH taking your stance and grounding the club behind the ball (except in a hazard, where address = only stance) -- and the ball moves, it is on you. No intent or unintent at all. There is never any judgment call that has to be made by you or by any other fellow competitor, partner, or referee. You took your stance and seated the club behind the ball and then an earthquake hit? Too bad, the movement is deemed to have happened to you.
Now, to know this rule can be to your advantage. Grounding the club is an integral part of addressing the ball as defined by the rules. If the ball is on a precipitous lie and it is a windy day, if you don't ground your club, then it isn't automatically on you. It could be if you did cause it to move, but without the grounding, there isn't a true address. I think most of the golf-crazy forum members here have played on a windy enough day that the ball will actually oscillate on the green because of the wind. If the ball is on enough of a slope, the wind can and will start the ball rolling. In this case, it is very good to know this rule, because quite simply, unless you want to run the risk of that penalty, you probably shouldn't ground the putter behind the ball. Stance + grounding and then the wind dislodges the ball = penalty.
Nicklaus almost never grounded his club behind the ball for exactly this reason -- he knew that grounding what a part of address, and he didn't want to automatically be deemed to have moved the ball if something freaky did happen.
Most rules in most sports never require someone to read some one else's mind. The ball is either in play or out based on the line. The baseball is either fair or foul, a ball or a strike. The soccer ball is either in the goal or it isn't. The football crossed the endzone line or it didn't. No question of intent.
Now, most sports do have a few rules that require the umps/referees to do some mind reading. Flagrant fouls and the appropriate penalties/suspensions/ejections and the like. But, I think that as many as possible should be written without having to know intent. And the case of swatting the sand in a hazard is one them, to me. The rule should simply be, no touching the sand with your club, whether you are frustrated or not. (With all the other exceptions in the rule, like if you trip and use the club to prop yourself up, etc.) I think that swatting at the sand like McIlroy and like as you decribed Tiger did should be a 1 stroke penalty, whether they intended to test the condition of the hazard or not. That's my opinion.
July 4th, 2009, 05:18 PM
Even in Rule 18 we see:
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