FUNNY, just yesterday i was watching some vintage watson stuff and he was taking divots....hmmm.....interesting nicklaus and watson supposedly saying they dont take divots but on film they always do... very interesting.
no divot with irons = thinned shot
do what you guys want...You keep trying to argue the point that since one or two good golfers "supposedly" didnt take divots then that is the way everyone should...
95% of professional golfers take divots....it's your choice whether you want to make correct contact or not. I can't make you
YOU CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT YOU CANT MAKE HIM DRINK....i'm just saying
This isn't a debate. If you would like to debate Watson and call him out on what he said on TGC, then go right ahead. I'm merely stating what he said. Maybe he does take divots. Maybe he takes craters. Maybe he takes divots so deep that you have to line the crater with yellow caution tape. But he said that he doesn't take divots.
Taking or not taking divots is irrelevant to the "different swing" question posed here. The fact that you never take a divot with a driver, rarely with a 3 wood and always with a PW doesn't mean that you consciously used a "different swing" with each club. jmo
Taking or not taking divots is irrelevant to the "different swing" question posed here. The fact that you never take a divot with a driver, rarely with a 3 wood and always with a PW doesn't mean that you consciously used a "different swing" with each club. jmo
I think we can say with certainty that the original poster is now more confused than he was before he asked the question I know I am.
I know what you mean, atm. I usually stay out of these discussions, because we have many members more skilled and knowledgeable than I regarding these things. But the OP sounds like a beginner who is confused about whether he needs to develop a different swing for different clubs. I'm almost positive that the answer to that is 'no' and to get caught up in trying to do that could really mess up what game he already has. And all of the tangents discussed here regarding the effect that varying club lengths, stance, divots, etc. have on ones swing, while very interesting, clouded the original issue IMO.
As far as my comments are concerned, let me explain that I know that you believe that you understand what you think I wrote. However, I'm not sure you realize that what you read was not what I meant.
The only reason you're hitting "down" on an iron swing is because the ball is on the ground as opposed to a tee and it's further back in your stance.
The "descending blow" is simply a byproduct of this.
Say that the bottom of your swing arc is Zero. This position would likely be used when hitting, say, a 4iron. That is to say that the 4-iron clubface strikes the ball at the "0" point of the arc. A 5-iron might make contact at the "minus .5 point", (because the ball is slightly further back(, the 6-iron might be minus 1 and so on.
A driver is struck either level or slightly on the upswing because it's on a tee and the ball is positioned further forward in the stance. So a driver might be struck at the "plus 1 or 1.5" point on the swing arc.
A divot is also a byproduct of hitting a ball early in the swing arc using a descending blow which is the result of moving the ball further back in the stance. A divot is not a "goal".
There is no difference between a driver swing and a 9-iron swing other than ball position and the natural difference in swing plane due to club length. But they are both arcs.
Now, there are specialty shots such as "pinching" a ball to gain backspin, bunker shots and certain other types of shots which require a more upright backswing and more of a "chopping" motion, but for standard shots, they're basically all the same.
Someone mentioned Nicklaus earlier in this thread. That brought to mind an instructional tape of his I once watched, (and still have somewhere), called "Golf My Way". There is a segment in this tape where he addresses this very issue. The segment includes a comparison of Nicklaus' wedge swing, short iron swing, long iron swing and driver swing. It is presented in a manner in which the screen is segmented into quadrants, each with one of these swings displayed and all four are triggered simultaneously. As one watches the sequence, it is quite obvious that all four swings are identical. In fact, this excercise is the entire point of the segment and Nicklaus himself points this out.
The only difference, as I stated earlier, is that shorter clubs will bring the golfer closer to the ball and create a smaller arc while a driver will bring him further from the ball and produce a larger arc. And, once again, the relationship of the clubhead striking either downward or upward is dictated by ball position.
But the swings are all the same.
If you don't believe this, then I suggest you find a copy of that tape and see for yourself.
-JP
I have this very same video and it is obvious from this that it is the same swing.
All the explanations regarding the different shaft lenghts and ball positions are valid and if one believes that the manufacturer has done his job in designing the correct club for the different distances then simply go ahead and hit the ball with the same swing.
I think we can say with certainty that the original poster is now more confused than he was before he asked the question I know I am.
Thank you, you are correct, I have not been more confused since i got my first organic chemistry intro in high school.
My question had nothing to do with divots, which is where this post seems to be heading. For all I understand so far, ball position and the length of the club one is using does make a difference on swing. Otherwise, the CONCEPT is the same. I also believe that I, and notice that i say I, have to divot to make the ball spin back in most cases. That being said, i feel i have a better chance to make good contact with the ball if i divot, versus scraping the grass. A divot for me is not essential, however is very valuable in telling me if i made an inside-out swing or an outside-in swing, also the depth tells me how close or far away i am standing from the ball. So a divot is a result of ball position and length of club for me, albeit an important tool. I'll try and keep my swing similar if not totally the same, its difficult enough perfecting one type of good swing....
Rao.
Last edited by Rao Hamid : January 31st, 2007 at 09:54 AM.
Thank you, you are correct, I have not been more confused since i got my first organic chemistry intro in high school.
My question had nothing to do with divots, which is where this post seems to be heading. For all I understand so far, ball position and the length of the club one is using does make a difference on swing. Otherwise, the CONCEPT is the same. I also believe that I, and notice that i say I, have to divot to make the ball spin back in most cases. That being said, i feel i have a better chance to make good contact with the ball if i divot, versus scraping the grass. A divot for me is not essential, however is very valuable in telling me if i made an inside-out swing or an outside-in swing, also the depth tells me how close or far away i am standing from the ball. So a divot is a result of ball position and length of club for me, albeit an important tool. I'll try and keep my swing similar if not totally the same, its difficult enough about perfecting one type of good swing....
Rao.
You are right, they are essentially the same! Sorry your thread got jacked - it tends to happen with us forum junkies!
no one is saying that a three wood should take a 6 inch divot....woods if they just brush the grass...that's probably fine...but a 6 irons should always take some turf with it...if you don't then you are picking the ball which is a fine line between a pick and bladeing/ topping the shot....
there are instances when pros dont take divots...they are far and few between, even with the long irons...let's just take the world number one for example, since most would agree his swing is as close to perfect as any human has ever come....Divots with every club except one, Driver....
he's worked on flattening out his swing but he still takes divots. 12 majors is hard to argue with...
jack nicklaus....divots....18 majors....
who is one pro who doesnt take divots with his mid or long irons? i cant think of one
Todays drivers are meant to be hit with an ascending blow, or at worst, hit when the head is travelling on a line parallel to the ground. the shorter the club, the more decending blow is desirable (you wont have very much decending blow at all with a 2 iron, if any at all. However, with a wedge you will have substantial decending blow).
The swing should remain similar, but ball position changes to accomodate the desired blow.
Well, this discussion need the insight of a newbie golfer:P
First of all, I think there are many ways to Rome as they say.
Regarding the driver. There is no doubt that the driver has to ascend and hit the ball on the uppercut so that the ball will go up in the air and roll to get distance. I think we all agree on that.
But, how do you want to do that? You could as someone said place the ball further in front of your stance and still keeping the club in the center and take your normal swing from there. But ofcourse you will have to make your stance whider and change your posture a bit to get balance but you still swing around the arc your are girving yourself. The swing will naturally look different because the arc is more upright but the swing is still the same in your head.
Tiger bottoms out the club in a different way, he changes his spine angel away from the target in the downswing and keeping his lag so that the driver will flatten out earlier. I guess if you don`t do this and put the ball further in front of your stance you will have to open your clubface more since your club will not meet the ball at the same time as with an iron, but it`s stil the same swing mechanics, although not the same allignment and hitting purpose.
When it comes to irons, I agree, a descending blow would be prefered if you have the chance of hitting the green. It`s much easier to land on the green with backspin (which comes natural with a descending blow) and not rolling of, than hitting the ball in front of the green and get the right roll onto the green(which would happen with not such a descending hit).
But I believe there are exceptions to the rule of descending even with the irons. For instance. If your are in the wind I believe the best shot would be to have the club bottom out just when it hits the ball or slightly before the ball. This will give it less loft and more roll.
So it has to be concidered the situation, do you want the ball to roll abit on the ground or loft and to stop when it hits the ground? Ofcourse, golf is already difficult enough, so learning two different ways of releasing your wrists would ofcourse be a problem, then I would always try to descend,as I believe that will be most benefitial on a regular basis.
If anyone dissagree with my thoughts, please let me know, as I try to learn the game as well as I can
January 27th, 2007, 08:54 PM
I know I am.
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