golfrewind.com

This post is not intended to demean those who are technique junkies or anyone who may post technique advice………. As I share your passion for the game. It’s for people leaning to swing a golf club and coming here to find out how as most of us are not qualified to give such advice. And those who are I think would be the first to tell you this is not the avenue to learn. Teaching someone to swing a golf club takes a trained eye witch means they must be able to see what you are doing.

I started a blog a few weeks ago for avid golfers in my area and have been posting in a few golf related forums on the internet (it helps me get ideals for post on my blog).
After reading through some of these golf tips I may not be able to ever swing a golf club again.


I am 47 yrs old and have been playing this great game since I was 8 and learned the game via a PGA pro and I am good enough to play the game with anyone on the planet and not hold them up. That being said, I truly believe that the golf swing itself is not as hard as some make it out to be. I think it should be left to a PGA pro as to what the hips should do, is it a right sided game or a left sided game, Should I keep my head down, when does the wrist cock, ect.

I think for the most part there are some basic fundamentals we all need to learn and after that the golf swing happens and there is more ways than one to get it done. A PGA pro is your best bet to learn these fundamentals and any motion problems you may encompassed along the way. For those of us who have ingrained bad habits we know how hard they are to get rid of.

That being said, I think there are things we can all share about playing the game in general witch is 1000 times harder than actually swing the weapons we use.

In summery; providing advice about shoulder turn when you have never seen them swing a club can be harmful (learning how to swing can be fun and simple removing bad habits may not be). Providing advice about your practice routine that helped you get better or your putting routine that helped you make more putts or how you make decisions on the course or the types of equipment you like not so harmful……

You're right. We should really shut this whole section of the forum down.

In fact, you're more right than you know, because we should probably really just shut down the equipment section, too, since, again -- without knowing anyone's swing -- how can anyone give advice about what piece of equipment is best?

In fact, no pro, past or present should ever write a book either. Or make a DVD. In fact, they probably shouldn't even show golf swings on TV, because someone might try to emulate their favorite touring pro. They should just show the ball flights and not how the players hit the ball.

Oh, an you probably shouldn't ever play golf with another person -- excepting your idea of a PGA pro -- because that other person might try to give you a little piece of advice that is all wrong, too.

</end extremely sarcastic mode>

Ok, give me a break. First and foremost, it isn't like this forum comes with a guarantee that everything is going to help, or be accurate or anything at all like that. It is a bunch of fans of golf, talking about the game (the game) we enjoy or even love. And, since we all are so enchanted with the game, and for almost all of us, the better we play, the more we enjoy ourselves, we are all just trying to get better. So, if a new idea, or a new thought, or a new drill is passed along the Internet, it doesn't come with any guarantee -- you get what you pay for after all!

Secondly, not all of us has the time, or the money, or live close enough to, or have the desire to scoot off to a PGA pro every time some little error sneaks into our swings. Sure, you might go down the wrong road, but there is a decent chance someone may give some truly helpful advice. There are PGA teaching pros and some very, very knowledgeable people who post on this forum and many of the other, too.

And, it should really be noted that PGA teaching pros can very often lead someone down the wrong path too. They are imperfect, too! Sometimes what the pro likes to teach and the way the player likes to swing are incompatible. There are many horror stories on this forum and others about a pro, whose reputation was impecable and had received numerous awards, who just couldn't help a forum member. It wasn't until that member went to a different teacher that was more in tune with the member that the member got the help they wanted/needed.

Thirdly, I talked about this in a thread just a few days ago, but different people learn things in different ways. Some people learn a lot from working with an instructor one on one. Some people learn a lot from reading about swing theories and working on their swings on their own. What works well for one person (instruction) may not work at all for someone else.

In the same vein, take two people who are performing very similar swings. If you ask them what they feel when they swing, you are more than likely going to get two very different answers. If I am looking for help in what I should be feeling, I may talk to the first person, try to replicate their feeling and make a total disaster of a swing. But, when I talk to the second, something just "jives" with me, and I can really feel exactly what that second is talking about. Just like people learn differently, people feel different things. And, having a forum where many different members -- who are all trying to accomplish the same basic thing -- talk about their specific feelings, chances are good that something with click with you. The more different people, the more different perspectives you get, the greater the chance that one of the perspectives will jive with your own.

Fourthly, I think that there is a valid point about a paralysis by overanalysis... on the course. But, and this is a bit but, I also firmly believe in taking my swing -- whatever it's current state is -- on to the course and playing with it that day. It is important to enjoy yourself when you are playing the game.

However, analysis is perfectly fine on the range. If you don't analyze your swing, how are you ever going to ingrain a change? Why should it matter if you are trying to self-analyze or have a teacher analyze for you? Either way, analysis is important -- becoming aware of what your body is doing is the first step to changing what your body is doing. I go to the range to work on specific issues of the swing, and I try not to work on things when I am on the course. I play with what I brought that day.

Fifthly, there is a wealth of information out there, and everything you need to build a good golf swing is out there. But, and this goes back to my third point, what works for one person isn't always going to work for someone else. This is actually the main point in a lot of Hardy's recent work about one-plane and two-plane swings. In fact, you can find many, many examples of directly contradictory advice. But, unless that information is out there, a person may never see it. The information can be rather hard to find -- that's a main reason the forum was put together in the first place, to bring golfers together to share that hard-to-find information. And, to provide different perspectives in interpreting that information once it is presented. Hogan himself in his book says that if you practice and do the drills to ingrain the fundamentals he lays out in Five Lessons that anyone reasonable athletic (athletic enough to play golf!) can shoot scores near 80. Should you just ignore everything he wrote, since he's not a teaching pro standing beside you? Is there nothing you can learn from his book? Or anyone else's book or article or video?

All in all, I think that most members and most people reading this golf tips section are smart enough to realize that the information that can be passed over the Internet is limited. It is not going to replace other forms of teaching, but there is no reason at all it cannot complement it.

I for one, have learned a lot from this forum -- including the tips section. And yes, that is reflected in my lower scores this past year. I can only hope that the advice I have posted has helped a few other people in turn. But, I personally have never posted assuming anything about anyone's swings -- I try to post fundamentals that should be true in perfect swings -- whether such a thing exists or not. Also, this is why asking for video is fairly common, because the experienced members/teachers on this forum do understand that without looking at a swing, it can be hard to diagnose.

But, at the same time, what is wrong with listing the common reasons someone has an error?!? If the person is in tune with themselves, maybe they will recognize their error and be able to remedy it?

Finally, I think you fail to realize that just because you may not have ever gotten anything out forums or magazine articles or books, that certainly doesn't mean that no one has. I agree that there is a culture in golf (in many aspects of life, really) of seeking the quick fix, and almost demanding immediate results. And that changing bad habits requires hard work, which a lot of people just don't want to do. But, I think that your solution -- which basically is you have to visit a teaching pro before you can even pick up a club -- otherwise you'll get some bad habits -- is ludicrous. Most of us probably started golfing just to have some fun. I know that is my personal story -- I bought a set of cheap clubs an went out with my friends once or twice a year and smacked some balls around a course. A little while back I decided I wanted to get serious about my game, so I started teaching myself -- *gasp* out of a book. I personally enjoy the challenge of teaching myself, and I teach myself a lot of different things. Anyway, I know I had a bunch of bad habits. Partly from smacking the ball around and having fun, but partly from playing other sports, too! It took me a very long time to stop cupping my wrist because that was how I held a baseball bat. The cupping lead to an open clubface -- but of course, since a baseball bat is round, it never mattered before if the bat "face" was "open" or not. In your method, I guess I never should have played baseball then softball, eh? Should I have waited until I saw a teaching professional to try to break this habit? I knew exactly what I was doing, I knew what I needed to do to correct it -- in fact, I used two drills I got *dare I say it* off of a forum to break my habit. Heck, I know that I still have a bunch of bad habits -- but I also know what I have to do to fix them. I'm not going to dump my self-analysis, especially when I know that if I went to a teaching pro, they would tell me an awful lot of what I know. This may come off sounding like stubbornness, and there is definitely a little of that in there, too. But, if (probably even when) I get to an issue that I do not know what is causing it, I have no problem seeking the advice of a pro. Right now, I don't think that I need it. I definitely don't want it. Again, I like the challenge of teaching myself. And, I learn something from these forums all the time.

To summarize: I think that the biggest point is that not everyone wants to go or can go to a teaching pro every time something goes wrong. I think that asking/telling people not to discuss some of the more technical aspects of the swing is just silly -- I hope I am not overstating it here, but I think that many people do get something and maybe even a lot out of these discussions.

I think that you fail to recognize that the information provided over the forums is not meant to replace a teaching pro, but rather to compliment or supplement it.

so you are saying that a thread like this healthy???????????????

When do you begin your hip rotation?

I am sorry I disagree..............its monkey golf......

and you are also over analyzing my post.

I'm not overanalyzing your post. I am taking umbrage that you are calling a bunch of people's different opinions "monkey golf". Did you even read the thread? There are several people whose advice was very similar to yours. Yes, there were a few more mechanical pieces of advice given, but the advice given was actually all over the spectrum. And I think that that is exactly the goal of a successful forum. That you get many different perspectives brought to the table, and hopefully one of the many different ideas will click with the person who asked the question.

What is so wrong about that?

Is there really nothing at all of any value that you can get from a book or magazine article or an internet forum?

(Oh, and are you going to address any of the points I brought up? I certainly concede I could be very wrong, and I like to see other people's perspectives on topics like this. But, I brought up a bunch of points to support my point of view, and all that came back was "I disagree". If you can argue the points, I'd very much like to see it.)

Edited to add: By the way, I wanted to add this little story about teaching myself from a book. It isn't about anything too important, but I think it is good to explain a little of my perspective.

I played baseball for a very long time, and when I started graduate school, I naturally wanted to play on our department's softball team as well. I am not a very fast player, but I had good reflexes. Consequently, I was not an outfielder, I could play the infield, third or first base were my main positions primarily because of my reflexes. Also, because of my reflexes, I could hit the ball. (I know it's slowpitch softball, but the only strikeout I ever recorded was intentional. Our league didn't have a mercy rule, and we were destroying this team by something like 30 runs, and in the final innings before it got dark everyone on my team swung at every pitch that was pitched to us. I swung at three pitches (we also played a full 4 balls 3 strikes count): two bounced 6-7 feet in front of the plate and the third was a good 4 feet outside.) But, since I hadn't had an actual coach in a long time -- and really I never had a good baseball coach ever -- I had some very sloppy habits. I was a dead pull hitter, and popped the ball up way too much. Sometimes those pop ups would carry a long, long way for a home run, but far too often they would float into an outfielder's glove. Sure, I hit some grounders and line drives once in a while, but way too may easily caught balls. We kept stats on the team, and I know that I was only around a .300 hitter. Not bad for baseball, but just ok for softball. What was worse was that after two seasons, the book was out on me. The fourth outfielder could play between the shortstop and third base and because I was such a pull hitter, they got me a lot more often than the usual 4th outfield positioning.

I wanted to remedy this, so I bought a copy of Ted William's book, The Science of Hitting. It really opened my eyes. I learned an awful lot about batting technique. All self-taught. I went to the batting cages at least once a week all spring, often 2 or 3 times a week, and hit balls until my arms felt like my veins were pumping battery acid. Come summer time when the league started up, I was almost a completely different hitter. Instead of straight pulls and hoping for that rare homerun distance smash, I was hitting line drives and grounders, hard... very hard actually. To all fields. My favorite hit was a line drive between the first baseman and second baseman. If the ball wasn't hit straight right at someone, it was almost always a base hit. My miss became a grounder up the middle instead of a floater to the outfield. That first year, when the better teams thought they could still play me as a dead pull hitter, I batted almost .700. Instead of 8 or 9 homers, It was only two, and neither were long fly bombs. They were both line drives that I hit hard enough that they rolled past the outfielders. But, lots more singles and doubles, and consequently lots more RBIs and runs scored. Slowpitch softball is, well, slow enough that if it was an inside pitch I knew how to turn on it and hit a line drive to left, and if it was an outside pitch I could delay the swing just right to hit a line drive to right.

Like I said, it isn't too important of a story, it isn't like I won the state championship in high school with my new swing or something. We did finally win one league championship, but I can confidently say it wasn't just all me. If anything, it was due in no small part to a new graduate student we got who was an ex-NCAA baseball player. That guy was scary good, at least on the slowpitch field with a bunch of roundbelly beer-drinking good ol' boys just out there to have some fun.

The moral of the story is that I completely taught myself some good hitting fundamentals out of a book written by one of the best who ever played baseball. I am sure that my swing isn't and wasn't perfect, far from it. (Today, there is probably too much golf in my softball swing -- I've moved each of the last few years and hope to get back into a league again this summer -- so I don't know in what state my softball swing is today.) But, it more than got the job done. And, I know I can do it again, and that's why my primary source for swing advice has been Hogan's Five Fundamentals. I know that I can teach myself again, and just like I didn't need to go work with the school's baseball hitting coach, I don't feel like I need to go see a golf teaching pro at this time. I could be wrong, like I said above, if I get to point when I am stuck, I don't have a problem seeking and paying for the advice of a professional.

But, I know that the swing can be self-taught. Am I going about it the absolute fastest, quickest way? I don't know, and I'd agree in all likelihood not. But, I am enjoying the trip. Sure, I get frustrated, but in the whole, I really enjoy the challenge. And, I for one, really like reading about different perspectives on all the different topics. Hogan's book isn't perfect. If you watch the old videos of his swing, what he says he does in the book and what he really does are different in a few key places. There are also other books that teach swings very similar to Hogan's, with just a few differences -- almost never any differences in the fundamentals -- and I like seeing the different perspectives. I like trying a few different things to see what works best for me personally.

So, I just don't think that never analyzing your swing without the aid of teaching pro is necessary. I think that self-analysis can be very valuable, and I think that the different perspectives that the forums bring together can also be very valuable.

Sure here is a great post ..............

Or this one

My issue is that just because a beginner or a mid handicapper hits a few solid shots one day and all of the sudden their qualified to teach golf.

I do not think that the way to becoming consistent is looking for the next great tip by someone who not qualified. Not on this forum but I saw one post where someone suggested a new golfer go learn the stack and tilt method. This is not only stupid but down right dangerous. That’s not to say this or any golf discussion board is bad for the game or a player its not.

The term monkey golf is not mine it’s a term used around my club by the pros who work there I just agree with all 35 of them. Heck two of them are top 100 teachers and have written golf books.

Can you learn golf from a book???????? Sure as long as it teaches the fundamentals and does not over complicate. Learn to swing the club then go and learn to be a player. If you read closely at a book by a qualified Pro he/she will tell you to see you’re pro. As-well as a bunch of disclaimers stating the method may or may not work for you……………..
.
One thing you did point out is golf should be fun and I think that’s a point I am missing. I do have fun but I also; have never in my life done anything in a halfazzed way. Which probably takes the fun out of something’s for some people………..


Can you dig a swing from out of the ground (teach yourself)????? Yes you can, Hogan…. proved that….. Hogan never watched anyone on the range or went searching for tips however all of his counterpart’s watched him and went to him for tips. And while they were monkey golfing he was playing golf……


PS my disclaimer about pros..... not all are good at what they do and if a pro asks you to make changes that are not comfortable, Run. A good pro is one thats works with what you have and then teaches you how to play the game............

Maybe you ought to just keep your opinions to yourself...not everyone is cut out to be a single digit handicapper who labels lesser golfers games with some ridicilous demeaning name (I could care less about the bookwriting jerks who also do this BTW)...this is a place for kicking ideas around...there are plenty of textbooks and teachers out there...people come here to talk about what their experiences are and readers can take whatever they choose to take from what is posted for themselves, even if it is just the pleasure of sharing in the experience...threads such as "when do I uncock my wrists" will yield alot of different opinions, some will actually be correct, but here the process holds more value than the answers (unless you are reading bignose, aka "the textbook"'s posts)...

Thanks for the buzzkill and the dark cloud...how about you come back when you have something to actually contribute!!??!?

You know, I am a teaching professional and my advice doesn't always work. When I can see that it isn't, I try another strategy. If that doesn't work they I try something else. I keep trying and always am looking for a new creative way to get my students to do something. Does that make me a bad teacher or a good teacher?

In a golf forum there are a hundred different ways something may be explained but if just one of them gets a golfer to swing better, who are any of us to judge?

A forum is a place for an exchange of information. I don't have to try any tip I read but I enjoy reading how other people play the game. I picked up what I think is a good tip the other day (this forum or another). On your backswing feel like someone is pulling your rt hip pocket back. On the downswing feel like someone is pulling your left hip pocket. Tried it and liked it. Seems to make it easire to time my swing and to help me get through the swing and onto my front side. Glad I read it and tried it.

hoooohh ooohh eee eee aaah aaah ..... then call me a stupid dangerous monkey boy.


I am a Stack & Tilt golfer. It has helped me tremendously. It's already taken 5-10 shots off my game. It feels good, and my shots are insanely crisper and way more accurate than ever. The so-called god-of-swings swing never worked for me. I couldn't get out of the 90's!

So buddy, You need to prove to me why and how the S&T is dangerous. I want real proof, not your heresay proof. I want the exact reason why I should not play the Stack & Tilt swing.

I ALWAYS listen...

Monkey Boy Bill






The Stack & Tilt Monkey Swing. See how his head is over the ball in the pre-swing? What form!

The monkey needs to point that rt foot out a little. Boy, he has a real strong grip. Probably trying to fight the slice!

See, this is the problem with placing all of your faith/credibility in a person based on the their handicap.

Firstly, just because a person can't execute their desired swing every time, does not in any way mean that they don't know what they want to accomplish. In fact, look at some of the teachers considered the best today, Leadbetter, Harmon, Haney. How many majors have these guys won? Zero. Yet, by using your logic, they are wholly unqualified to be giving Tiger or Phil or any pro who wants to win a major advice.

Just because one cannot personally accomplish a task, does not mean one cannot be an expert in that task.

The teachers listed above have studied many, many swings, and they feel they know what makes a good tour-capable swing. And, the player must think so too, because those teachers a sought out by quite a few of them. Just because the teachers aren't capable of playing tour level golf, doesn't mean they can't teach touring pros.

Secondly, this comes from a problem with only using handicap to evaluate a person. You don't have any clue as to why a person is a mid-handicapper. Are the a mid-handicapper because their putting stinks? It is entirely possible that they have an excellent driving and iron game, but they have the yips or some other block about putting. In this case, that person sure sounds like an excellent person to talk about about the swing, don't you think? Or, maybe the person is a mid-capper because they have an excellent short game... they haven't yet been able to hit their driver and irons well, but they have practiced their short game, so they get up and down fairly often. You just don't know because handicap is just one single number that isn't too terribly informative.

This is also why when people suggest that every member post their handicap in their user profile, I am against it. Handicap doesn't tell you a single thing about the quality of the advice given. Whether I play off a +3 or a -36, does it change the value of my saying "the biggest thing is to return the club on plane at impact"? No, even the worst golfer knows this, at least intrinsically/subconsciously, whether or not they can do it more often than one out of every ten times or not.

If you can write your disclaimer about pros, about how not all are good and you need to change if you aren't comfortable, why oh why should advice gotten over the internet be any different? Why is all advice over the internet bad? The exact same disclaimer can be applied to forum advice. In all situations, you have to use your head and decide for yourself the quality of the advice.

The Stack and Tilt is not a dangerous swing if you are very athletic and very flexible. A 10 HC telling some one over the internet they should learn it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last Saturday myself and a friend were paired up with another twosome. One was about a 12 HC and his buddy was more a beginner maybe 10 rounds under his belt. The 12 HC proceeded to give his friend lessons and tips one being the old keep your head down another one was to roll the hands over at impact to name just a few…………..the real problem was neither of these two were even close to having sound fundamentals. Both had very poor posture at address, very poor alignment, ball position was all over the place and very bad grips….

All info this 12HC was providing his buddy was never going to help and he was doing nothing but parroting something he read about or herd somewhere say. I am sure you have witnessed this same type of Monday morning armchair golf instructions as I think we all have. My playing partner that day is a Class A PGA Pro down for the winter and he not only said this is bad for this mans game but could actually be physically harmful to someone like this beginner that clearly did not have the athletic ability to hold his head down or any of the other tips the 12HC was spewing out throughout the round...

His exact words were “With the very poor posture this man could have severely hurt himself trying to hold his head down“


As a teaching professional I am sure you would agree that bad instruction can be harmful in many ways…..


as you said above "You know, I am a teaching professional and my advice doesn't always work. When I can see that it isn't, I try another strategy. If that doesn't work they I try something else. I keep trying and always am looking for a new creative way to get my students to do something. Does that make me a bad teacher or a good teacher?"


As a teaching professional I am sure you would agree that bad instruction can be harmful in many ways…..

Of course not, it tells me that this person understands people’s strengths and weaknesses. In my eyes it’s the words of highly trained and knowledgeable professional ….one who I would think understands that without seeing someone in person could never instruct someone in very unnatural motion like the golf swing

My questions have not been answered. So....


The way I see it is the only dangerous thing about the Stack & Tilt is the money that will be taken away from the current pro teachers wallets when people finally realize how easy this swing really is... and with less moving parts too.


YMMV...


Monkey boy . . .


See, we're all over the place... you can't get away from the monkey golfers!

Actually all the bad advice in the world means I'll have a job for a long time.