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Here is my theory. If you hit the club on the toe you will have a tendency to hit the ground before the ball.

Why? Compared to a club coming in flat (in relation with the ground) the toe down will inevitably hit the ground sooner, won`t it?

Secondly, if the toe of the club hits the ground first the blade will rotate open and impart a sidespin on the ball wont it? Causing it to slice?

Thirdly, can not my pull (outside to inside swingpath) be a compensation created to prevent the slice? ( I have also strengthened my grip some).

And without fail,when I hit the ground first it slices unless my grip pressure is intense.

Also, the reason I am asking. Standing like the club is designed actually made my divot (lowest point of the swing) occur 4-5 inches infront of my normal divot, and the divot was much shallower. Meaning I adjusted to the lie of the club more but it felt weird swinging it that way..

Hope someone with great knowledge and insight can answers these questions.

Man that's way above my grade code; but if you are hitting 4 to 5 inches in front of where your divot should be, you have some other things going on rather than just a lie problem.

When you set up properly on a level tight lie with clubs that fit you correctly and your alignment, posture and stance are right; the club should be square to your target line and the toe of the club is normally elevated a fraction off the surface.

You need to take a look at video and see what the path of your swing is and whether or not you are maintaining your spine angle and/or sliding back and forth on your swing. If you are doing what you say, I suspect you are having troubles in both areas. Hope this points you in the right direction.
Cheers!

Bob, that was not what I meant but thanks for the repply. Maybe I did not make myself clear enough.

When I stand to the ball like I want to, and feel comfortable with the divot comes lets say 1-2 inches before I would like it, or picking the ball clean of the surface.

When I put the club on the ground with the toe slightly up and stand far enough away from the ball (arms relaxed under my shoulders) the divot goes 2-3 inches in front of where the ball would have been. Meaning the difference from standing the way I feel like and adjusting to the club wich I believe is too flat for me is 4 inches or so.

Hope that made it more clear?

I truly believe that people should not have standard clubs, because we are individuals. When the manufacturers don`t even have proper standards (loft, flex, lie and shaft length) we need to adjust the clubs to us, not the opposite.

Im not saying Im swinging perfect, but I certainly don`t think the clubs are helping me at this point.

Today Im going to get my 6 iron adjustet 2 degrees upright so lets see If I am right, that the clubs are not working for me.

Too the pull being a result of a slice here is what I meant cause/effect wise. For me as a left handed player, when I slice it the ball goes out of bounce 4 out of 5 times on my local course.

So needless to say it ****** me off. I strengthened my grip and sub conciously started to raise myself in the downswing too not hit the ground resulting in a disastrous pull hook.

My best shots with my clubs are actually when I pick the ball clean of the turf. Then I only pull it by 10 yards or so.

But again, my swing might be a trainwreck, but EVERYONE that has seen my play has commented that I have beautiful and fluid swing. But the results doesnt match.

I don`t want to sound bitter, but I have really dedicated myself to this, more than anything. But lets see, if the adjustments made by my local pro doesn`t give me any results I will gladly admit that its me, not the equipment and I will work my *** off too find the correct swing.

Wish me luck today, we`re going to adjust my six iron and see what happens :)

If you are hitting balls that start right (I'm considering you being left handed), pulling the ball, your swing path is outside in, over the top as some would call it.

Also, it really sounds like your clubs are too flat. If the clubface wants to open as the head hits the turf, it's most likely because the toe is making contact before the heel. That's just a classic case of the necessity to be fit for clubs. I'm pretty lucky because I can play most mfg's standard lie angles, though I really fit for 2 degrees upright (by Mizuno's standards anyway).

So, A) get fit. I remember you purchasing a standard set. You're pretty into golf now, so if you can swing it financially, get your set adjusted or invest in a whole new set or irons. And B) groove better swing path. You need to approach the ball from the inside.

I purchased a custom set actually, but the club maker (local pro) did not wan`t to adjust anything before my swing was more set. Although its not set yet its pretty obvious I need to make the club more upright, as both me and my local pro assumed at the very beginning.

I think it will become much easier to swing "right" if I don`t have to fear slicing the ball all the time because the toe hits the ground first.

Hitting it on the toe consistently can lead to.. a sore toe.

How tall are you? If you are six foot or less I would say that off-the-shelf clubs shouldn't make the kind of difference your are talking about. If you are taller I could see why you would have to set up with the toe down for an average set of clubs. But I do agree a club fitting would be great for anyone. Especially if you have your swing pretty settled. If you want the toe off the ground you just need to bend over more so you can comfortably extend the club away from you. You then have to be disciplined enough to maintain your spine angle.

Im 6 feet 1,6 inches.
And My arms are a bit shorter than average as well.

Im pretty positive I have to have more upright clubs, I don`t believe in adjusting your body to the clubs.
Everyone has a natural posture wich is the easiest to maintain during the swing, if your clubs doesn`t fit that posture than you change your clubs. Thats my five cents.

I have done that, but as mentioned the club comes to far away from me and I feel the need to pull the club back to not loose my balance.

When I have the club closer to me the club lies flat at address, my finish is easier but the club hits with the toe down on impact.

Great replies. Max I think you have what is needed to get your swing and contact straightened out. I remember years ago a club builder telling me much the same thing; but, for me it made little sense.

If the clubs are not close to correct, a person will compensate in order to make better contact with the ball not improve his swing. It seems to me starting out with near perfect fitting clubs is the way to go then adjust them as something becomes obvious. In most forms of troubleshooting you start with optimum settings for that particular application then make the simplest changes first proceeding to the most complex.

I agree with you Bob. I have stopped believing in standards recently.

If the club is too flat for instance, I have to bend over more. What does that lead to? Well, more stress on the back muscles throughout the swing.

Gravity is pulling your back down and to keep yourself at the same level your back muscles has to work hard. For an athletic person with strong back muscles this is of course no problem.

But for an average guy well, I can actually tell you myself. I have actually noticed myself that I lift my back up more the more holes I have played. And I believe thats from my back being strained and It can no longer hold the posture so it lifts itself up.

Im really looking forward to adjust my clubs, and ill let you guys know if I am on to something or if I just have to adjust

A pull and a slice are often related because the same swing fault can cause both problems.

If a golfer has an outside in swing, if the club face is square to the target line at impact, the outside in swing path imparts side spin and causes a fade or slice. The same swing with the club face square to the swing plane at impact causes a pull. If the clubface is in between, it will be some combination of a pull and a slice.

Whenever you are both sometimes pulling and sometimes slicing, it's a good idea to make sure you aren't swinging outside in.