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Went to the range today with a tip from Stewart Cink. On the downsing return your right elbow to your address position or side to start the downswing. Yeah, I've heard something like this before but never really tried it. Well I was hitting solid shots like haven't done in a long time. I hit a couple of 170+ 7 irons which is good for me. The ball was hitting the sweet spot a number of times. However, I really don't know what I am doing so timing was off. One problem is many of my most solid hits were going about 20 to 30 degrees off line to the left; a straight pull. The driver was a little problematic and harder to time but when I did it right it felt good. Any more tips on this aspect of the downswing would be appreciated. I thought when I did it right the plane was a better especially on the follow through. It seemed to start the hip bump in a way.

Here's another thought on the back elbow: When my swing goes off, I make a shortened swing, leaving the back elbow close to my side, and starting the transition when my elbow starts to come loose. The swing feels very short, but I can generate decent power from it. You might want to try that, and if that works, expand the range of your swing motion from there.

I agree with straightshooter. Never having had any luck in figuring out what exactly to do with the arms during the swing and then be able to remember it, I figured that if the elbows start in position X and you want to return them to position X, why move them to position Y during the backswing? So, I have learned to keep the triangle from the elbows to the wrists intact, or stable, throughout the swing, which causes them to maintain their relative position to the torso. This takes all the issues of timing the arms and hands off the table providing the freedom to simply swing with the large shoulder, lat, pec muscles. It is a very compact but most powerful swing. There is obviously a lot more to it than I can explain here, but am happy to answer questions.

The most likely reason you are pulling some of the shots is because your left arm is not connected while you are getting your right back into firing position, causing a slight delay of the hands/arms which encourages an around the body release.

Went to the course today and had some very inconsistent hitting. It started to feel like I did not have enough room between my club and the ground on a number of shots. Thing is, when I hit it right I can really feel the connection between the body and the arms. I feel like I get my entire weight behind the shot. But this was not happening enough. I know what I was doing before was too much arms. Not much leverage. I can see how I could be kind of swinging around the body and not extending the arms in the follow through maybe. I had the hardest time with the driver. Timing was awful.

This may be too big a change to be trying it with the driver just yet because it sounds like a radical departure from what you have been doing. What is known as connection is actually leveraging the triangle formed by the arms. Leverage at the shoulders is what transmits the rotational energy of the torso to the arms and hands. With leverage, the hub does not have to rotate very fast in order to make the extremities (hands), which occupy a wider radius, travel fast.

The leading arm, left for a righty, is the key for maintaining leverage, because it is the arm which maintains the radius. It is very difficult for a reformed arm swinger to learn this feel. The slightest reach from the shoulder ruins the leverage. You just have to convince yourself that your address position is the widest your radius will be. At address, you should feel the top 2 inches or so of the upper inner arm slightly pressed against the upper flesh of the torso. Take your right hand and poke around just below your left armpit in the torso and you will feel the upper ribs. The very upper arm should rest against those few upper ribs and stay there throughout the swing. From there, just rotate the torso leading with that left shoulder and don't let it extend. Keep the feel of the arm pit being glued. Some instructors will tell you the right arm is just along for the ride and to an extent that is true. The left does the radius measurement and keys the rotation which puts the powerful right side into position to do it's thing at the right time. But the right side has to rotate with the left, and thinking only of the left can cause the right to be lazy and not completely rotate which it sounds like is happening to you. There are a couple of ways to make sure the right is rotating. One way is to keep the elbows the same distance apart throughout the swing and keep them pointed toward the hips. With a leveraged left shoulder and a stable triangle, the right side will be pushed back with it. The other way is to glue the right armpit and feel as if the two armpits are doing the torso rotation, but it is important to key with the left shoulder. When I find my right shoulder getting lazy I think of a directional arrow pointing directly out the back of it and have the right shoulder go that way as the swing starts. Unwind with the left shoulder and the right will come in most powerfully without having to do anything to make it do so.

As I cautioned, this is a difficult feel to develop for someone who has been swinging with the arms. I know because I've been there, and still today have to sometimes force myself to not reach even a little bit from the left shoulder. I know when I do because it's a dead pull. Staying connected produces a dead straight shot.

That all makes sense crossgrain. It is a rather radical departure. I've been trying and trying to get that connection and the arm torso in sync and thought I had improved a lot. But when I felt the connection and how powerful the leverage was with my little right arm move I found something that I have been missing. So I am now determined to make connection a part of my swing. You thought about a reach from the shoulder ruining the connection is an important point I think. I think the loss of connection happens with the lifting of the arms in the backswing. When I see an example of a one plane swing everyone gets the left arm at least level with the shoudlers in the back swing. I have to lift my arms a bit to do that and that is where I loose connection I think and was not getting it back on the downswing. That reach you talked about was occuring and my arms were free to outrace my shoulder and hip turn. What I was doing at the range was re-establishing connection on the downswing but that introduces timing issues which is what I was having problems with. It felt good when timed right but that was only happening about one out of four or five times.

I went to this website: PGATOUR.com - SwingPlex - Home of Slow Motion Player Swings

It has slow motion swings of may pro players. I watched may swings from the down the line shot. One thing I noticed in most players is when they are at the top there is space between the upper part of their back arm (the part between the elbow and armpit) and their body. Some have more space than others. The true two planers for example. I did see one or two where the armpit is almost closed or glued but not many. Therefore it seems difficult and unorhtodox for the right elbow to start at point "X" and remain there.

The Graves Golf Academy, where Moe Norman protege, Todd Graves, also know as Little Moe, teaches the Moe Norman Swing.

Watch Moe Norman swing at the above link. The emphasis is on his "single plane", which for sure contributed to his accuracy, but look at his right elbow and how he maintains the triangle. I am of the opinion this had more to do with his length and accuracy than any other aspect of his swing.

Watch Aaron Baddeley on the link you referenced. He makes a deeper shoulder coil, but keeps the right elbow in relative position. With such a coil as his, the shoulder area will rotate further than the sternum area, which causes the elbows to rotate around the ribcage a bit. I personally have found no advantage to rotating that deeply (deeper than Norman), but the opportuity for error is increased.

The key to all this really is the LEFT shoulder HB, as I discussed in my previous post. When you see the right elbow out away from the ribcage, the left can still be connected, but the player has to have learned to bring the right arm back into position on the down as in the Cink tip you mentioned. This move re-establishes the triangle just before impact. My question remains, why? This is an extra move which just opens more opportunity for error. If the triangle is kept intact throughout the swing, the player has the freedom to just focus on making a pure rotation of the torso without expending energy on extraneous moves, and the issue of timing becomes much simpler.

The way I accomplish this is to consider the inner forarms. At address, the elbow creases should be up with the elbows pointed toward the coorsponding hip. The inner forarms are very sensitive. I "feel" the distance between them from the elbows to the wrist end of the ulnae, and concentrate on keeping that relationship. You can feel when they move, separate, or alter relationship. Yes, it is difficult to learn, and starting with a shorter swing is best. The simplicity and purity of execution once learned is worth it in my book.

Thank you for your reponses. I will keep them in mind as go to the range next.

[quote=...When I find my right shoulder getting lazy I think of a directional arrow pointing directly out the back of it and have the right shoulder go that way as the swing starts.... .[/QUOTE]


Thank you again. I just came from the driving range and this concept helped a bunch, especially with my driver. When I take my shoulder straight back (or at least what feels like straight back) and 'glue' my left arm I end up with a powerful inside out swing. I feel like I am on the right track and can ingrain this in my swing and really improve.

Well watch Ben Hogan. His right elbow is pretty much glued to his side. Although this video is not about the right elbow, but you will clearly see where the right elbow is.

I wouldn't say it is glued. He seems to be tucking it back down as I am trying to do. The only difference is I think I am letting the elbow hang too far back on the hip. I need to see a down the line shot of Hogan.

Scratch that. I just looked at a bunch of Hogan swings and he does keep the elbow pretty much glued. The reason he is able to do that is that he doesn't take a big backswing and has very little arm lift. So he does it a lot different than I am attempting to do.

I was about to say there are hundreds of video on the web to see it. Not to nick pick here just because Hogan doesn't make a big backswing doesn't mean you cannot. But if you keep the right elbow down, the left arm cannot rise high. What you have to avoid is letting the right elbow sliding back behind you and up (chicken wing). That is a deadly fault that can only result throwing the club over the top or chop wood.

As for me I am a Hogan student and a 1-plane swing meaning I do not rotate the left arm and open the club up on the backswing. My clubface always remains square to the path, and my wrist hinge back and forth.

I'm sure glad to hear someone else say they don't rotate the club open on the backswing, which is so predominant today. Sure simplifies things, no?

Yep, it is part of the conspiracy of modern professional golf instruction to prevent folks from ever becoming good players and endless lessons trying to master an impossible timing sequence.

KISS it (keep it simple stupid) Straight back and straight through down the line.