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I've heard him referred to as quitter, actually, especially in reference to big games. Not until 1972 when he had that huge game in the finals did he finally shed that "cant win the big game" label. Maybe not a literal quitter, but his 22 ppg avg in the playoffs (compared to 30 in the regular season) speaks for itself... Which other primetime player had that big of a drop off when it mattered..?

When was the three second rule implemented? Im pretty sure Wilt spent the majority of his career without it, which would help any big man. If Shaq could just live in teh lane, how many would he score? Regardless, okay, Wilt dominated back then, and Shaq dominates just as much now (which I think is more impressive anyways). I guess if you dont take into account any rule changes, any expansions, etc, and ONLY compare numbers, then I concede, Wilt had better numbers, except Rings.. (which doesnt tell the whole story anyways...Wilt had better numbers then MJ, yet you say that MJ was the best ever..)

Shaq hasn't exactly been facing the greatest centers either. While in his early career, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, and David Robinson were still going strong, two of those guys were in the West while Shaq was in the East until the late '90s. By the time he'd shifted westward, those guys were declining. Now, Yao is about the only good true center left in the game besides Shaq.So it's not like he's been facing the sternest competition either.

When Shaq can put up Wilt-like numbers in today's age when the center position is as weak as it has been since the 1950s, then maybe there'll be a comparison. As of right now, Wilt towers over Shaq in all his accomplishments (except rings, which mean nothing in terms of dominance-Shaq didn't lead any of his teams to an NBA title until MJ left, and Wilt had the same problems with Russell's Celtics), and that consitutes a more dominant player to me.

Wilt's playoff scoring average declined because many of those historic playoff battles were with indisputably the best defensive center of all time, Bill Russell.

I'll check on when the 3 second violation was enacted but the 24 second clock began in the 1950's and I'm fairly sure the 3 second rule was in effect then.

My feeling that MJ was the best ever is based on his all around game, his 6 championships while surrounded by role players, and him personally taking the NBA to a new level. I'm not saying Shaq isn't the best of today's power players, just as Wilt was in his day, but I am saying that Chamberlain dominated his era much more so than Shaq has dominated his. Your original comment was that Shaq is the most dominating player in history. I was just supplying information to the contrary.

hmm...interesting.... not sure about the 3 second rule either, i thought they instituted it bc of guys like wilt...

To stlcard.. i never said wilt's competition was weaker, but I do think that Shaq's dominance is still more impressive given the nature of today's athletes and rules. and i agree that shaq doesnt have wilt's numbers, but you gotta look at the times. Wilt played under completely different circumstances as Shaq, including rules (offensive goaltending wasnt a violation then, I think 3 second also)... Wilt in his prime couldnt even put up Wilt numbers now..

I agree with you league that Wilt's playoff battles were against the best defensive center of all time, Bill Russell. BUT, if Wilt dominated his era, that era includes Russell. No one in today's era can stop Shaq, no one. Plus, Wilt's battles against Russell were at most 1/4 of his games in the playoffs, and thats a generous number. His avg shouldnt be as low as it is. 8 points is quite a large differential from Regular season to playoffs. As dominant as he was, why couldnt he dominate the playoffs as he did the regular season? The playoffs is when it matters the most, and certainly any player would try to dominate each and every game (if possible) in the playoffs to ensure victory.

The 3 second rule was first instituted in basketball in 1935. In 1955, the lane was widened.

Source

Where do you come up with offensive goal tending was allowed during Wilt's era? Let's stick to facts and not "I think so's." You have to remember that there were not as many teams in Wilt's era and therefore not as many playoff rounds. If anything, the 1/4 of Wilt's playoff games played against Russell is probably low, but that's an "I think" so I won't claim that as fact. Regardless, there was no way for Wilt to pad his playoff stats against mediocre playoff teams like Shaq can.

Seems to me the Pistons did a mighty fine job of not being dominated by Shaq in the finals last year. He had a decent series but I'd be curious to see Shaq's playoff stats from last year. Another telling tale is the number of rebounds both players averaged. I haven't seen the latest NBA stats but where does Shaq stand there? My bet is he has a long way to go to get to almost 24,000.

This "discussion" is like saying Tiger is the best of all time. he's the best today but until he surpasses Jack's records he won't be the best of all time. The same goes for Shaq vs Wilt in my book.

Shaq just collected his 10,000th career rebound on Dec. 7. I think it's safe to say he has a ways to go before he gets to 23,924. In fact, that's not even top 10. Jerry Lucas is 10th with over 12,000 career boards. Bill Russell and Wilt are head and shoulders above everyone else, both with over 20,000 total.

I stand corrected..

Regardless,

Yes, look up Shaq's scoring avg for his career and his playoffs. They are about the same. Last year, Shaq avged around 21... I can guarantee, without looking anything up, that Shaq didnt avg anywhere close to 8 points less than that. If you can dominate any game, why wouldnt you dominate the playoffs like you did the regular season. I just dont understand this..

Offensive goaltending was around in Wilts time. They changed the rule because of him. This I know. I might have been wrong on 3 seconds, but I know they changed the rule for goaltending because he loved to do it. That and they widened the key and changed the rule for inbounding the ball over the backboard cuz of him........ I think one more (maybe stepping over the ft line for the shooter??), but not sure..

Boards, yes Wilt got more. cant deny this. He got a bunch. he dominated the glass. Shaqs not in the top ten in boards all time, but are there really 10 guys in history more dominant than Shaq? Ben Wallace gets more boards than Shaq, except this year, is Wallce more dominant? Was Rodman?

Bottom line, to me, Wilt was dominate. THeres really no denying this. But Shaq is just as much. You said Russell caused Wilt's stats to suffer. So there was someone that could contain him. I heard Eaton contained him well. But I'll leave that for you to verify, I never saw Wilt play live...only on espn classic...
but....Who can stop Shaq now? anyone?

You guys may disagree, but Numbers alone dont tell the whole story, especially numbers from different eras.

"Any doubt that Kobe is running the Lakers, at least in his mind, should be dispelled by remarks he made Monday about Karl Malone. Kobe said the uncertainty regarding Malone's return wasn't fair to his teammates, who shouldn't have to look over their shoulder to see if Malone would take somebody's spot. Then Kobe said about his supporting cast, "They are here giving me 110 percent." Me? The Mailman's agent said Malone has ruled out a return to L.A. because of Bryant's comments. Want to do it all yourself, Kobe? Be our guest. "
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...pot/index.html

I don't In fact it's one of the most mis-used criteria when evaluating an individual player's greatness in any sport, IMO. Teams win Championships, not individuals. No one does it without a strong supporting cast. Not MJ, not Shaq, not Bird, not Magic, not Elway, not Montana.... NOBODY. J1MO

Oh and the Mailman is a thug, a choke artist and a record-(insert euphamism for "lady"-of-the-evening here) who should have retired 2 years ago.

agree. the mailman simply wanted to hop along for the ride on the way to a championship, but was unable to get it.

Now he is going to use what Kobe said and try to go to a team that has a good chance of winning it all.

Whats the main objective of any player? To win... great players win (of course with a supporting cast, but very few teams, ie Orlando last year, have absolutely none) with the circumstances they have...

Mailman avged 13-9-4 with a steal a game and high percentages. Granted, those arent typical mailman numbers, but theyre more than serviceable for any NBA team... Why are the Spurs, Wolves, Heat all pursuing KArl? Cuz he can play, even at his old age..

Of course everyobdy wants to win. He's just hopin to another team now that he sees little chance of the lakers winning.

I wont deny that... A lotta people in LA are saying the same thing. He's using this as an excuse to leave the Lakers to a team with a championship hope. We'll see how it all turns out though. Kobe apologized last night to Karl because it was not what was intended (he says). He says he would welcome Karl with Open arms, as would the rest of the team.

It'll be interesting to see what he decides.