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  #16 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 09:48 AM
thinkin2 thinkin2 is offline
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Has anyone considered the possibility that the wind mignt have caused the ball to move or rock a little? This has happened to me before and the wind here is nothing like in Scotland, especially on the North Sea. If his ball was still moving from his putt when he tapped it in that's one thing. Not sure about the rules if his ball was moving due to the wind. Sure sorry to see it happen to him whatever the cause. I like Toms.
Jerry
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 11:08 AM
jimmigan jimmigan is offline
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I certainly believe that Toms didn't want to have to deal with a potential Monty-like situation and without the possibility of that, however remote it might have been, I don't think he DQs himself. Does that mean I think he's a cheater or lacks integrity? Absolutely not. He obviously wasn't trying to pull anything or improve his situation illegally. No one wants to strike a moving ball.

So I believe that he would have let it play out if it wouldn't have been viewed as though it occured and he chose to ignore it. He couldn't really play dumb about something you knew he was looking at - the ball as he was putting it - As opposed to something like teeing the ball up beyond the imaginery line between the tee markers. In that instance it would be viewed as something done without realization.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 11:11 AM
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Lefty Lefty is offline
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I'm supried that somneone with a good reputation like Toms has coped any flak about an honesty call.At the heat of competition, the brain is focused ina different way , and I believe that he may not have fully realise dwhat had happened.

Maybe the jealousy about his wife is surfacing?
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 11:36 AM
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I don't think he is getting any flak about it.....I think that his play made his decision easier.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 12:00 PM
jimmigan jimmigan is offline
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Actually he's getting props for being honest. I don't think his standing in the tournament (+2) had anything to do with his decision but I think the possibility of a Monty-like flak did. Toms knows that he did nothing notorious or even weasely but why let others paint it differently, so he DQ's himself in the event someone(s) saw or filmed what was not a purposeful or even helpful rules infraction.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 03:38 PM
leaguegolf leaguegolf is offline
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I most certainly don't believe Toms cheated in any way but I wonder why he waited until the next day to DQ himself. If it was enough to make him wonder about it at the time, why wasn't it enough to address the issue before he signed his scorecard and left the course?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 09:39 PM
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droogy33 droogy33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaguegolf
I most certainly don't believe Toms cheated in any way but I wonder why he waited until the next day to DQ himself. If it was enough to make him wonder about it at the time, why wasn't it enough to address the issue before he signed his scorecard and left the course?
Exactly. Think about it, folks...no one has a "revelation," over dinner, that his ball may have moved a couple of hours ago. Either the ball was in motion, or it wasn't. And David would've known, straight away, at the time of the incident.

Addressing the opening-round 74: That's exactly the score Phil Mickelson opened with. Then Phil shot a 67 in round two and, after four birdies in a five-hole stretch in round three, Phil had climbed to -7, just three strokes off Tiger's lead. So there's no way David Toms, or any other golfer, would think they're out of it after an opening-round 74.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 10:04 PM
leaguegolf leaguegolf is offline
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I agree completely droogy33, so why do you think he chose to go the route he did?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 10:11 PM
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dante dante is offline
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I obviously cannot get into his head, my thinking is that he was unsure enough at the time but then thought he better error on the side of caution and call it on himself. Perhaps he was even scared to think a viewer or a spectator saw it and was going to turn him in, though that seems hard to believe from such a quality guy.
Think about this sport and the spirit of the game that players are so honest. Imagine a defensive back going to the ref and admitting he interfered with the receiver on the play. (obviously a ridiculus comparison)
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Old July 19th, 2005, 10:34 PM
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droogy33 droogy33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaguegolf
I agree completely droogy33, so why do you think he chose to go the route he did?
I'm very curious about that as well, league. The media seem to be giving David a free pass on this one, likely because he is such a swell guy. If someone like Colin Montgomerie had this happen the media would've been all over him.

I can only guess that David knew the ball was in motion and, since there apparently were no witnesses, may have considered "getting away with it," especially given the circumstances: going all the way to Scotland for only one week and playing in a major.

I bet David wondered if there really had been no witnesses. Then he may have considered his valuable reputation and pondered his virtue and integrity...then made the decision. Since he DQ'd himself the prevailing opinion is that David is an honorable guy. But for 12 hours...
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old July 19th, 2005, 10:57 PM
leaguegolf leaguegolf is offline
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I see your point when you put it that way and I agree that the media would've fried others for pulling something like this. Sure makes you wonder what Toms was thinking though, doesn't it.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old July 20th, 2005, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaguegolf
I most certainly don't believe Toms cheated in any way but I wonder why he waited until the next day to DQ himself. If it was enough to make him wonder about it at the time, why wasn't it enough to address the issue before he signed his scorecard and left the course?
League,

That's what I'm pondering also
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old July 20th, 2005, 06:44 AM
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Cernunnos Cernunnos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaguegolf
I see your point when you put it that way and I agree that the media would've fried others for pulling something like this. Sure makes you wonder what Toms was thinking though, doesn't it.
It really does, as he is now in a situation ****** as he has admitted it, & would have been in danger of being ****** if he didn't no matter what his reasons. As even though he has admitted to it before being accused of it, he is now in exactly the same boat as Monty was a short while ago.

I can't help thinking even this apparent owning up to a supposed infringement will be raising many eyebrows & questions, in the golfing community

The funny thing is, I really don't think it makes a great deal of difference whether his ball was moving or not. or whether a ball position was or wasn't marked, as long as the approximate spot was found. The only difference is the letter of the rules that were infringed.

One thing that always amuses me, is that in these big competitions, all the scores are meticulously recorded by officials before the players score card is handed in. If there is already a record of the score on the leader board, score cards submitted by players seem rather redundant & farcical requirement. imagine playing 4 days & then because you made a mistake on your score card you risk being DQ'd because you filled something in wrong, or someone filled something the wrong way around, or on the wrong card, etc.

Last edited by ForgedRbest : July 20th, 2005 at 07:00 AM. Reason: inappropriate language
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old July 20th, 2005, 10:44 AM
leaguegolf leaguegolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cernunnos
One thing that always amuses me, is that in these big competitions, all the scores are meticulously recorded by officials before the players score card is handed in. If there is already a record of the score on the leader board, score cards submitted by players seem rather redundant & farcical requirement. imagine playing 4 days & then because you made a mistake on your score card you risk being DQ'd because you filled something in wrong, or someone filled something the wrong way around, or on the wrong card, etc.
All the scores posted on a leader board are "unofficial" until the player turns in a signed scorecard. Much like a horse race, the results aren't official until completely reviewed. A player is responsible for his score, not those watching. Toms' situation clearly shows that observers, no matter how closely they watch, can't see everything.

Submitting a correct and signed scorecard is one of the rules of competition and should be second nature to anyone who competes regularly, at any level. All the fuss over correct scorecards may seem a bit over done to most casual players but it's a necessity when playing competitively.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old July 20th, 2005, 09:35 PM
thinkin2 thinkin2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaguegolf
All the scores posted on a leader board are "unofficial" until the player turns in a signed scorecard. Much like a horse race, the results aren't official until completely reviewed. A player is responsible for his score, not those watching. Toms' situation clearly shows that observers, no matter how closely they watch, can't see everything.

Submitting a correct and signed scorecard is one of the rules of competition and should be second nature to anyone who competes regularly, at any level. All the fuss over correct scorecards may seem a bit over done to most casual players but it's a necessity when playing competitively.
This is very true but they too are human and sometimes get careless and make mistakes. This has happened to quite a few players over the years. You would think that with so much at stake they would never let this happen but sometimes they do. Have a good one.
Jerry
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