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Old February 27th, 2006, 01:40 PM
upanddown upanddown is offline
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Zach Johnson at the WGC

Did the US coverage yesterday give a reason why he picked up his ball at the hole where he tried to play a left-handed shot after hitting the rocks ?
The only suggestion I heard on the UK coverage was that he may have incurred a penalty by hitting the rock in the hazard with his backswing.
I wondered whether he picked up his ball too hastily after the mishit, and was told by the rules official that he had picked it up without marking it.
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Old February 27th, 2006, 02:28 PM
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Dormie Dormie is offline
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There were a lot of things going on during that play...

Here are a few of my thoughts on that situation. Hopefully a few of the rules experts here on GR will chime in...

1. Let's say he hadn't hit the rock in his backswing and the ball still only went backwards a few inches (like it did). Can he decide at that point to take his drop from the hazard? If so, WHERE is the point it crossed the hazard if it never left the hazard. Basically, if you play a shot from a hazard then ends up in the hazard again, but this time unplayable...where do you drop that?

2. After he hit that shot and it went nowhere, he marked a point on the hazard line. Was that where he felt the ball first crossed into the hazard? The ball hit the rocks so many times, who knows where that thing crossed.

3. If you do ground your club in a hazard and advance the ball up the fairway you receive a 2 stroke penalty. But do you need to replay the shot (stroke & distance)? If so, shouldn't he have replaced the ball and tried again?

4. And what's with this '2-stroke penalty loses the hole' in match play? That's a pretty weak rule if you ask me. What if Tom's ball was buried up underneath the lip of a fairway bunker at the time?
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Old February 27th, 2006, 10:47 PM
frankieb frankieb is offline
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I'm pretty sure the penalty is different based upon type of play. During stroke play, grounding your club in a hazard is a 2-stroke penalty. In match play, the penalty is loss of hole. It's not that the two-stroke penalty means you lose the hole, the penalty is assessed differently.

In my opinion, it was a horrendous decision to try and play that shot anyway. Did he really think he was going to make the green with an altered backswing from the wrong side of the ball? Why not take the unplayable lie and take his best shot at the pin?
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Old February 27th, 2006, 11:24 PM
pdecker pdecker is offline
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As I understood that mess, Johnson asked the rules official if it was OK for him to hit the rock on his backswing as long as he completed the swing through the ball. The rules official apparently did not understand the question and said this was fine (although it is not). After making the swing and failing to advance the ball, Johnson was informed that he would incur a two shot penalty for hitting the rock and grounding his club in the hazard, that is why he got so ****. There is no rule in match play that stipulates a two stroke penalty means loss of hole. What the announcer said was that it equates to loss of hole i.e., next to impossible to stay in the hole after you take the two shot penalty. I think that Johnson picked up because he had already taken three swipes at it, with the two shot penalty he would have been lying 6 after the drop, even if he holes the next shot he cards a 7 and Lehman is in the green side bunker (and not buried) in 2. It would have been ridiculous for him to continue, especially when the championship match is waiting in the fairway to hit.

As far as the spot of the drop, I believe it would have been at the spot the first shot crossed the hazard line. Faldo started to comment on the mark Johnson put down with his tee, then it became a moot point because of the penalty.

Last edited by leaguegolf : February 28th, 2006 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Inappropriate Comment
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Old February 28th, 2006, 10:43 AM
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OSUDan OSUDan is offline
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Rule 13-4
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
(a) Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;(b) Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or(c) Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play #8212; Loss of hole; Stroke play — Two strokes.

enough said.
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Old February 28th, 2006, 11:16 AM
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Bolt Fore Bolt Fore is offline
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OSU dan got it right, the penalty was loss of hole not two strokes
The ref got it wrong when asked if he could hit the rock on his swing, he misunderstood and said yes. My question is why didn't the ref make sure he understood the question?
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Old February 28th, 2006, 12:24 PM
pdecker pdecker is offline
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I stand corrected, thanks OSU.
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Old February 28th, 2006, 03:23 PM
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Fileygolfer Fileygolfer is offline
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In the UK, if you hit anything within a hazard while making a fair attempt to hit the ball there is no penalty.
So if he hit the rocks with his swing and continued his stroke there is no penalty but the stroke counted.

Did you know there are several rules that contradict one another.
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Old February 28th, 2006, 04:01 PM
pdecker pdecker is offline
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Interesting, maybe the ref for the Lehman/Johnson match was from the R&A.....
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Old February 28th, 2006, 07:25 PM
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Fileygolfer Fileygolfer is offline
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Maybe?

I know from experience that once you know the R & A Rules, if you turn Pro you have another set of European Tour Rules to learn. Also if I holiday in Florida (which I do) I have to know of any USGA differing from R&A.
CONFUSED?
Most definitely.
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Old March 1st, 2006, 12:05 PM
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OSUDan OSUDan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaguegolf
The USGA and the R&A rules are very similar. At any rate, not so different as to be confusing. Or are they? Do you have any specific instances (other than club specifications) where the two sets of rules are conflicting?
You used to be allowed to remove rocks from bunkers under R&A rules, but not under USGA rules. I think this changed, and you can't remove loose impediments from hazards anymore under either rule book.
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Old March 1st, 2006, 02:24 PM
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Fileygolfer Fileygolfer is offline
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Sorry to confuse you too.

The R&A and USGA rules are the same, its the interpretation of "Local Rules" that cause me confusion.
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Old March 2nd, 2006, 05:56 AM
JungleJ JungleJ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fileygolfer
Sorry to confuse you too.

The R&A and USGA rules are the same, its the interpretation of "Local Rules" that cause me confusion.
Our club has a local rule permitting the removal of stones from bunkers. I think this is mainly because many of the bunkers are, shall we say, quite firm. As the bunkers are rebuilt with better sand I expect this rule will be rescinded.
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