Johnny may have been quick but I believe the record shows that he was right.
Huh? Tiger said that Butch and no one knew what he was working on, so it wasn't fair. He was working with Haney is what was going on. Butch and Johnny were both wrong.
I like Miller , he speaks with authority after two Major wins , and he says what he believes, and he is able to give logical,informed reasons why he believes it. Not everyone likes it , usually because it's true. In a room full of yes men , he stands his ground.
When he was in his prime, he was able to look anyone, including JAck, in the eye. Jack then was the same as Tiger is now, so players like Miller,Watson, Trevino, Arnie and Jacklin who took Jack on in his prime and won , can say that they would fancy their chances against Tiger,and have the history to suport it.
I don't really think you can be a truly great athlete if you don't have confidence in your abilities to compete with ANYONE. I don't think the issue is really if Johnny Miller in his prime could beat Tiger. I think what Johnny Miller is saying is that HE WOULD NOT BE AFRAID TO COMPETE WITH TIGER. Given Miller's astonishing accuracy with his irons and Tiger's present propensity to hit wayward drives it's entirely possible that on occaision had the two met with each in their primes Miller would have had some measure of success competing against Tiger.
I think the message Miller is also conveying is that he doesn't see enough "Fire In The Belly" in some of todays golfers to want to go out and compete with Tiger. And to some extent I have to agree. Right now, Tiger has a huge psychological advantage against a field once he gets a lead.
Tiger went through a period between Harmon and Haney and I don't think Tiger was working with Haney yet when the "denial" comments were made. I do recall reading a story where Tiger was quoted as saying that he had out-grown Harmon's training. This was during the period before Haney was in the picture and Tiger had been struggling.
Harmon and Miller made their comments at Shinnecock during the 2004 U.S. Open, correct? During early 2004, Tiger was already working with Hank Haney on his swing. Check out this Golf Digest article talking about Tiger's swing changes:
"I haven't reached a point where I really need a pair of eyes when I'm struggling that badly, where I need some help," he said in early 2004. "I'm sure there will be a point in my career, yeah."
That point soon arrived, when Woods was unhappy with his ball striking even as he won the World Golf Championships Match Play in late February. Since then, Haney has frequently worked with Woods at Isleworth, and occasionally at his golf ranch in McKinney, Tex. Tired of the persistent questions about his swing, Woods has remained reluctant to publicly open the Haney chapter of his swing evolution. When asked specifically at the Tour Championship if Haney was his coach, Woods gave the kind of strained answer more suited to a hostile witness in a deposition: "Yeah, I've been working with him, yes," he said. "I've been talking to him. I've been working with him, yes."
Tiger quickly contradicted his little arrogant claim that he didn't need help, but by June of 2004 (U.S. Open comments by Harmon and Miller) he was NOT in denial. He did not need Butch's help because he already had been getting help from Haney since February/March of 2004.
Thanks for straightening out the time-line there. I should've known that you'd have all the Tiger info! During the period in 2004 when Tiger was struggling trying to find a swing, most believed he was in denial about his game. His persistent and puzzling "I'm close, I'm real close" comments came across as denial moreso than his swing results showed.
Yeah, I completely agree. I was wondering what was going on because it seemed like he (Tiger) was full of . But this article came out in January 2005 as a retrospective I guess. It was perfect because EVERYONE was wondering what was going on with Tiger and this article sort of straightened it all out. Tiger simply was quiet about his relationship with Haney I guess because he wanted to protect Haney's privacy or something? Who knows what it was, but he was definitely working with Haney for longer than he ever let on, especially while making comments like "I'm closer" when he really wasn't.
...I think the message Miller is also conveying is that he doesn't see enough "Fire In The Belly" in some of todays golfers to want to go out and compete with Tiger. And to some extent I have to agree. Right now, Tiger has a huge psychological advantage against a field once he gets a lead.
Good point. Money was a much stronger motivating factor 30-some years ago than it is today. Consistently good finishes and a few top 10s are good for couple million today without even getting into the money these guys make from the manufacturers and other endorsements. In 1972 Nicklaus played in 20, won 5 (including The Masters & US Open) had 4 2nds(The Open was one) and won $326,915. Even adjusted for inflation that's just over $1.5M in todays dollars which would have been good for 52nd place on last years money list right behind Bo Van Pelt. Jack won $30k for winning the US Open that year which was roughly twice the average salary back then. Campbell took home > $1.1m last year, over 20 times the average salary. IMO, guys today are not as hungry to win. It's not really their fault... they don't have to.
Good point. Money was a much stronger motivating factor 30-some years ago than it is today. Consistently good finishes and a few top 10s are good for couple million today without even getting into the money these guys make from the manufacturers and other endorsements. In 1972 Nicklaus played in 20, won 5 (including The Masters & US Open) had 4 2nds(The Open was one) and won $326,915. Even adjusted for inflation that's just over $1.5M in todays dollars which would have been good for 52nd place on last years money list right behind Bo Van Pelt. Jack won $30k for winning the US Open that year which was roughly twice the average salary back then. Campbell took home > $1.1m last year, over 20 times the average salary. IMO, guys today are not as hungry to win. It's not really their fault... they don't have to.
Nice points waz! I completely agree with your assessment of the situation.
Nice points waz! I completely agree with your assessment of the situation.
100% correct - coupled with the fact that the PGA tour pros belong to a super "Union" so that your tour card guarantees all but the worst a very good living. Perhaps the top 20% led by Tiger and Vijay bust a gut to win every time they play but so many appear to play just for the cheque. If they only paid the top 20 (and not such huge sums) there'd probably be much more excitement!!
To paraphrase Waz, there are two kinds of golf pro, those who want to be admired in the game for their achievments and those who want to be loved by their bank manager. The ridiculous purses now on offer mean that there is a comfortable life to be had never stepping outside thier comfort zone. They may have a purple week and win an event, if they are really lucky like Rich Beem , Todd Hamilton or Ben Curtis ,it will be a Major.
Regardless of the thousand added yards, lets let Tiger consistantly hit his approach to the green from 210 yards out when you needed more than a 9 iron to get there. We may find out that driver/ sand wedge makes it easier to avg 68.5 a round.
Sorry in advanced - I haven't read every single post on this thread, but I'm going to explain what Miller said. As in often the case, certain statements where taken out of context, or more acurately, part of his statement was left out.
What he said (paraphrasing) was ON CERTAIN COURSES, (read desert courses) he could beat Tiger on a consistent basis. There was nobody in the early-mid 70's who could go lower than Johnny Miller, so in this context, Miller might very well be right. He also added that he couldn't compete with Tiger on 'traditional' courses - translation US Open and PGA Championship setups. Again, not an unreasonable assumption. Miller is on record that he thinks Woods is the greatest putter of all time - or at least the greatest putter of the top etchelon players, the best clutch player of all time and certainly the greatest talent of his generation.
I don't think for a minute that Miller was implying that he thought he was a better player than Woods, week in, week out. What he was thinking, albeit outloudly, was more in the line of thinking of where he would have the best chance of beating Tiger. That would be in the desert where Miller was heads and shoulders over everyone else back in the day.
March 9th, 2006, 02:30 PM
. But this article came out in January 2005 as a retrospective I guess. It was perfect because EVERYONE was wondering what was going on with Tiger and this article sort of straightened it all out. Tiger simply was quiet about his relationship with Haney I guess because he wanted to protect Haney's privacy or something? Who knows what it was, but he was definitely working with Haney for longer than he ever let on, especially while making comments like "I'm closer" when he really wasn't.
During the period in 2004 when Tiger was struggling trying to find a swing, most believed he was in denial about his game. His persistent and puzzling "I'm close, I'm real close" comments came across as denial moreso than his swing results showed.
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