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Old July 26th, 2006, 12:12 AM
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TwillDog TwillDog is offline
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Thoughts on Tiger

Couldn't help but think as we watched Tiger march to victory how quickly things change. This year has been fascinating on the PGA Tour. First there's the dissolution of the "Big 5". Goosen has been good but not stellar, Vijay hasn't been Vijay, and Ernie was still getting back from the knee. So we had Phil and Tiger. When Tiger took Doral all things in the world looked balanced. Then Phil demolished the BellSouth and won the Masters, while Tiger was fairly pedestrian, worrying about his father, no doubt. His game definitely wasn't sharp for quite some time and many, myself included, began to look at Phil as the current number 1. He was definitely playing better, and playing more. This thought was underscored at the U.S. Open where Tiger misses the cut and Phil comes a few brain cells from half a slam. Despite his errant shots, many said this proves that Phil is here and ready to challenge Tiger.
I know one victory, major or not, doesn't prove anything normally, but Tiger just roared and the entire golf world heard it. He's number one, period, and there won't be any questioning that again, thank you...
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Old July 26th, 2006, 12:20 AM
TTUfirebird2008 TTUfirebird2008 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwillDog
I know one victory, major or not, doesn't prove anything normally, but Tiger just roared and the entire golf world heard it. He's number one, period, and there won't be any questioning that again, thank you...
Well, not for a while anyway. That was one of the best displays of iron play ever by anyone. If he wins at the PGA, it might be quite a while before people start questioning him again.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 12:41 AM
TTUfirebird2008 TTUfirebird2008 is offline
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Originally Posted by leaguegolf
And if he misses the cut at the PGA?
The questioning immediately returns and talk of a slump starts if he doesn't follow it up by winning the Masters next spring. I'm kidding...but I'm not.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leaguegolf
And if he misses the cut at the PGA?
I for one won't jump off the believer bandwagon. I wavered, even said that Phil could be number 1 (shudder the thought) in polite conversation. Phil could definitely be number 1 in a Tigerless world, and he is definitely the best player in the world not named Woods despite a less than brilliant Open Championship.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 09:11 AM
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Think of it this way. I know there is no such thing as "on pace" in golf, but if Tiger were to win one major per year for the next eight years, he will have won 19 majors, and will be referred to by 99% of the golfing world as the greatest golfer ever. The coronation will begin.

The funny part is that along that ride, what if his other three majors each year are such things as MCs, T-55, T-22, etc? Each and every year, along this incredible ride in breaking Jack's record, he will be questioned.

On a side note, for the first two rounds at Medinah, Tiger will be paired with Phil and Geoff Ogilvy. I didn't realize the PGA of America did that, but they pair the season's first three major winners. Pretty cool, except maybe for crowd control.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 12:09 PM
stlcard_25 stlcard_25 is offline
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Originally Posted by 14and18
Think of it this way. I know there is no such thing as "on pace" in golf, but if Tiger were to win one major per year for the next eight years, he will have won 19 majors, and will be referred to by 99% of the golfing world as the greatest golfer ever. The coronation will begin.

The funny part is that along that ride, what if his other three majors each year are such things as MCs, T-55, T-22, etc? Each and every year, along this incredible ride in breaking Jack's record, he will be questioned.

On a side note, for the first two rounds at Medinah, Tiger will be paired with Phil and Geoff Ogilvy. I didn't realize the PGA of America did that, but they pair the season's first three major winners. Pretty cool, except maybe for crowd control.
Somehow I doubt Tiger will throw too many MCs or T-55s up, but you have a good point. Tiger has finished 1, 2, 1, T4, T3, MC, 1 in his last 7 majors, but the one MC had everyone questioning his "top dog" status. I believe that the emergence of Phil as a rival for Tiger has been good for the game, and the first two rounds at Medinah will be fun to watch...it'd be even more fun if those two were paired together come late Sunday afternoon though.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 03:05 PM
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4th pga tour win for 2006 I believe. Not really a slump in my books.Sure doing better than 2004 when he only won twice.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 03:17 PM
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BPC BPC is offline
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Tiger Woods has no peers, not in the sense that Nicklaus did.

You can make the case the fields are deeper, more players today are capable of winning tournaments and capturing a major. It's a world game now, tours run everywhere on the globe. All true enough, but how come none of the other players compare favorably to past greats?

Why is it that the best "duels" with Tiger have come from a 19 y.o. Sergio Garcia, and nobodies like Bob May or Rich Beem? (Interestingly, all in the PGA - maybe there is hope for next month.)

Dimarco has hung tough twice but couldn't close the deal. No one else has ever been able to go toe to toe with Tiger on a weekend in a major. Why can't ONE top ranked player hang with Woods just ONCE when he is leading?

I think part of it is the money.

Back in Jack's time you had to win to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. Only the top 60 were exempt (instead of 125), and the money wasn't great outside the top 5 players. The Golden Bear seriously contemplated being a lifetime amateur. For the honor, to be like Bobby Jones? No, he got married after his junior year, and was making decent coin selling life insurance. That should tell you what the money was like back then.

Today you can make a boatload of cash with a couple top tens and making over half the cuts. Have you been taking Tom Pernice, Jr. in your fantasy league? I didn't think so, he hasn't won in five years. Missed 9 out of 23 cuts last year, but somehow cleared $1.5MM with TWO Top Tens.

The easy life is one thing, but the other thing is Wood's that much better, that much tougher mentally, and that much more focused on leaving his indeliable mark on history.

Comparing Woods with anyone else playing the PGA Tour is laughable. It is not even close.

Quote:
PLAYER - majors, PGA Tour wins

Tiger Woods - 11, 49

Ernie Els - 3, 15
Phil Mickelson - 3, 29
Vijay Singh - 3, 29
Retief Goosen - 2, 6
David Duval - 1, 13
David Toms - 1, 12
Jim Furyk - 1, 11

Top 7 rivals totals = 14 majors, 115 PGA Tour wins

Jack Nicklaus - 18, 73

Gary Player - 9, 25
Tom Watson - 8, 39
Arnold Palmer - 7, 62
Lee Trevino - 6, 29
Raymond Floyd - 4. 22
Billy Casper - 3, 51
Johnny Miller - 2, 25

Top 7 rivals totals = 39 majors, 253 PGA Tour wins

Last edited by BPC : July 26th, 2006 at 03:22 PM.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 03:22 PM
stlcard_25 stlcard_25 is offline
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Good points BPC...although I think you have to remember that Tiger is barely halfway through his PGA Tour career. It's very likely that when you list his 7 biggest rivals at the end of his career, half of those guys won't even come close to making the cut.
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Old July 26th, 2006, 03:53 PM
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There are so many people out there that love to hate Tiger that he will always be questioned. Several years ago they were saying that Tiger was winning because he had so much distance off the drive. After the British Open they were saying he didn't trust his driver... Time will tell where Tiger's place in history should be, but for now...He's got game!
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Old July 26th, 2006, 07:54 PM
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TwillDog TwillDog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPC
Tiger Woods has no peers, not in the sense that Nicklaus did.

You can make the case the fields are deeper, more players today are capable of winning tournaments and capturing a major. It's a world game now, tours run everywhere on the globe. All true enough, but how come none of the other players compare favorably to past greats?

Why is it that the best "duels" with Tiger have come from a 19 y.o. Sergio Garcia, and nobodies like Bob May or Rich Beem? (Interestingly, all in the PGA - maybe there is hope for next month.)

Dimarco has hung tough twice but couldn't close the deal. No one else has ever been able to go toe to toe with Tiger on a weekend in a major. Why can't ONE top ranked player hang with Woods just ONCE when he is leading?

I think part of it is the money.

Back in Jack's time you had to win to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. Only the top 60 were exempt (instead of 125), and the money wasn't great outside the top 5 players. The Golden Bear seriously contemplated being a lifetime amateur. For the honor, to be like Bobby Jones? No, he got married after his junior year, and was making decent coin selling life insurance. That should tell you what the money was like back then.

Today you can make a boatload of cash with a couple top tens and making over half the cuts. Have you been taking Tom Pernice, Jr. in your fantasy league? I didn't think so, he hasn't won in five years. Missed 9 out of 23 cuts last year, but somehow cleared $1.5MM with TWO Top Tens.

The easy life is one thing, but the other thing is Wood's that much better, that much tougher mentally, and that much more focused on leaving his indeliable mark on history.

Comparing Woods with anyone else playing the PGA Tour is laughable. It is not even close.
Excellent post, great points! I agree totally with seeing another golfer, preferably Philly Mick right now because he is the only other golfer consistent enough to put in the equation, come down the stretch on Sunday with a major on the line and basically breaking down to match play. Shooting the same numbers through the front nine, and just seeing who loses the most holes on the back side. That would be riveting golf!
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Old July 26th, 2006, 08:19 PM
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14and18 14and18 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlcard_25
I believe that the emergence of Phil as a rival for Tiger has been good for the game, and the first two rounds at Medinah will be fun to watch...it'd be even more fun if those two were paired together come late Sunday afternoon though.
Your post got me thinking... I wonder if anyone has ever been paired with Tiger in the final pairing on both Saturday and Sunday in the same major. It seems like whoever is with him on Saturday does not end up in the final pairing on Sunday.

Some that come to mind...
2006 British - Els (Saturday), Garcia (Sunday)
2005 British - Montgomerie (Sat), Olazabal (Sun)
2002 US Open - Harrington (Sat), Garcia (Sun)
2000 PGA - Dunlap (Sat), May (Sun)

I am sure there are others. The point being, I don't believe anyone has staged a 36 hole duel with him over two days on the weekend, like a Watson-Nicklaus match-up at Turnberry.
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Old July 27th, 2006, 12:47 AM
stlcard_25 stlcard_25 is offline
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I don't believe anyone has played the last 36 in a major with Tiger, or at least the ones he's won.

1997 Masters was Monty on Saturday, Rocca (?) on Sunday
1999 PGA was Jay Haas on Saturday, Mike Weir on Sunday
2000 US Open was Miguel Jiminez on Saturday, Ernie Els on Sunday
2000 Open was David Toms Saturday, David Duval Sunday
2001 Masters was Chris Dimarco on Saturday, Phil Mickelson on Sunday
2002 Masters was Retief Goosen on Sunday...I know he didn't play with the Goose on Saturday, but I can't recall who it was he was paired with. Angel Cabrera perhaps?
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Old July 27th, 2006, 01:25 AM
stlcard_25 stlcard_25 is offline
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Originally Posted by leaguegolf
The only one I seem to recall is when Thomas Bjorg played with and beat Tiger in a foreign event in the middle east a few years back. At least I think it was Bjorg.
Thomas Bjorn...he actually played with Tiger all 4 days of the 2001 Dubai Desert Classic.
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Old July 27th, 2006, 05:46 AM
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Ty_Webb Ty_Webb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPC
Tiger Woods has no peers, not in the sense that Nicklaus did.

You can make the case the fields are deeper, more players today are capable of winning tournaments and capturing a major. It's a world game now, tours run everywhere on the globe. All true enough, but how come none of the other players compare favorably to past greats?

Why is it that the best "duels" with Tiger have come from a 19 y.o. Sergio Garcia, and nobodies like Bob May or Rich Beem? (Interestingly, all in the PGA - maybe there is hope for next month.)

Dimarco has hung tough twice but couldn't close the deal. No one else has ever been able to go toe to toe with Tiger on a weekend in a major. Why can't ONE top ranked player hang with Woods just ONCE when he is leading?

I think part of it is the money.

Back in Jack's time you had to win to enjoy a comfortable lifestyle. Only the top 60 were exempt (instead of 125), and the money wasn't great outside the top 5 players. The Golden Bear seriously contemplated being a lifetime amateur. For the honor, to be like Bobby Jones? No, he got married after his junior year, and was making decent coin selling life insurance. That should tell you what the money was like back then.

Today you can make a boatload of cash with a couple top tens and making over half the cuts. Have you been taking Tom Pernice, Jr. in your fantasy league? I didn't think so, he hasn't won in five years. Missed 9 out of 23 cuts last year, but somehow cleared $1.5MM with TWO Top Tens.

The easy life is one thing, but the other thing is Wood's that much better, that much tougher mentally, and that much more focused on leaving his indeliable mark on history.

Comparing Woods with anyone else playing the PGA Tour is laughable. It is not even close.

Interesting points there, but a couple of things to point out about it.

1. Fields are significantly deeper than they were when Nicklaus was playing. The fact that all those around Woods have fewer victories is more to do with it being harder to win things now than it was 35 years ago.

2. The comparison isn't entirely fair because in the Nicklaus one, you have end of career figures, while in the Woods one, you have mid career figures.

Ten years ago, noone thought that anyone would ever get a sniff of Nicklaus's 18 majors. The game had changed and it wasn't possible to dominate the game like that any more. Simple reason being that there was so much strength in depth, so many more people playing the game. Now that Tiger is on target to do it, the pundits are talking about how much weaker the competition is now than when Jack played and how much easier it is for Tiger.

As to the original question, in 2001, Tiger had Duval and Mickelson breathing down his neck and I think they were world numbers 2 and 3 at the time. In 2002, Retief Goosen who was reigning US Open champion was right on his tail. Ernie Els finished 2nd twice in Tiger's 3 majors in 2000 (albeit some way back). He's rarely gone toe to toe with them I think because he doesn't let them get that close - certainly when he's playing well.
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