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Anyone want to talk about individual holes at Shinnecock? I'll start.

I've always been fascinated by "redan" par-3 holes, and Shinnecock's got a good one: No. 7, 189 yards. The essential characteristics of a redan hole are: a somewhat elevated and narrowish green that's on a diagonal when you look at it from the tee, bunker(s) guarding the front (maybe some room to run the ball on), and a putting surface that slopes from front to back. Devilish little things! Hard to get your tee shot to finish in a good place.

The use of the word "redan" to descibe such holes apparently dates to the mid-19th century, when a British veteran of the Crimean War said that the 15th at the West Links at North Berwick (Scotland) said it reminded him of one of the "redan" fortifications he faced in the war, because it was elevated and well-protected. Seems an apt name for this kind of hole. I hope we get to see some coverage of this hole, especially if it's playing downwind.

[For more info, see the official USGA program book for this year's US Open.]

I was watching a the ESPN US Open preview and they did a little time at the 7th. I wouldn't be suprised to see a couple of snowmen on that hole. BRUTAL!!!!!(now is when i need spellcheck )

i think ernie els and phil mickelson both called #7 the toughest hole on the course... saw it on espn today... hole looked REAL tough... should be a fun one!

Just read an article on Yahoo! Sports and there were some quotes from Ernie and Sergio regarding the 7th hole. I haven't seen it myself yet but I certainly am looking forward to it.

http://sports.yahoo.golfserv.com/gdc...e.asp?id=23947

Ernie: "It's going to be tough to hit that green I can tell you. I just don't see too many balls staying on that green. It's just not going to happen.

"You're going to see a lot of golf balls on the left of that green, a lot of balls in the bunker and just a lot of pars being made on that hole," said Els.

"This is where U.S. Opens come in and you've really got to be patient. It's going to really test your patience."

Sergio: "It's almost impossible to hit that green. I was playing with Ernie in practice this morning and he hit an unbelievable 4-iron. He flew it pretty much middle of the green, flew it two yards right of the flag and ended up in the bunker," said the Spaniard.

Then there's the Home hole, No. 18 (450-yd, par 4; dogleg left). You've seen Pavin's famous shot so often that you remember how much junk (bunkers, rough) you have to fly it over if you want to take a direct line to the green. Of course, being a short hitter, Corey had to bite off more of the corner than a longer hitter would. US Open program says guys will be hitting middle irons (not 4-woods) to this green. Still, it would appear that even the longer hitters will have to risk trouble for the reward of getting close. The prevailing wind blows right to left, which might make it easier to bend the ball and eliminate some risk. The secondary wind blows into the player's face. Fun... for those of us watching at home!

What intrigues me about this hole is that the 2-tiered green slopes sharply from back to front. If the Sunday pin is in the back, upper tier (that's where it was in 1995, right?), imagine one of the leaders coming to this hole and deciding he MUST be sure to get it to the back, but the adrenalin surge makes him hit it long. Now he's got a downhill chip coming back. Should be a dramatic finish to the tournament.

BTW, Shinnecock's superintendent says the worst turf on the course is right side of fairway, 228 out. "That's because everybody drops a ball there and tries to hit the same shot Pavin hit in '95."

And what's up with No. 17 (par 3, 179 yds)? When one of the final holes at a major is a par-3, you expect it to have some teeth, right? I've got the Shinnecock yardage guide (bought it from the USGA), and the scorecard in the back shows this hole to be the No. 18 handicap hole. In other words, it's easiest hole on the course (However, today it ranked 11th in difficulty, based on scoring average relative to par, I assume; average score today was 3.2.)

They actually made this hole 7 yards shorter than it was for the 1995 US Open, plus which they moved the tee box to the right a little, which appears to make the approach somewhat easier. Pretty flat putting surface. I must be missing something.

I guess this hole could make for some Sunday excitement. Imagine a guy who's 1 shot back when he gets to this hole. He figures he must make birdie here, because birdie at the last is no sure thing. He could catch the leader here on 17. Or he could fall further back by going for a tucked pin, dumping in a bunker, then having little green to work with on his sand shot, making bogey. Or he holes the sand shot! OK, I guess I like this hole.

20-year-old amateur Spencer Levin must like it, too. By now, you've probably seen his (first-ever) hole-in-one here today. Bounced it on, and into the cup. His dad was on the bag.

I'm definitely a fan of setting up a course for Sunday excitement. Look at what happened with the Masters on Sunday on the back 9. One of the best finishes I've ever witnessed. I say, make the pin placements the first 3 days tough, then make them accessible on Sunday. With the pressure of being in a major on Sunday, it'll make it that much more difficult but those that can handle the pressure should be rewarded.

I agree, Victor. I'd rather see someone win it than see someone lose it. Maybe you'll get your wish (and everyone's wish) for late-Sunday excitement. No. 15 (par 4, 403 yds) is described as a birdie opportunity. Maybe a 3-wood to get it in play, then a go-for-it shot. No. 16 (par 5, 540 yds) is a reachable, depending on the wind. So, a player who's a stroke or 2 back coming down the stretch may play it this way:

15 - go for birdie
16 - favorable wind: go for it; if not, hang on
17 - go for birdie
18 - hang on

Just speculating. Can't wait!

where abouts is it

is it on the coast

Shinnecock Hills is on Long Island, in "The Hamptons" area (near the eastern tip of the island). Have never been there, myself. Seems nice, though.

Which holes are playing tough at Shinnecock?
For answer, see below. (Apologies if this doesn't display OK.)

Hole--Par--Yds---Rank--StrokeAvg
07----3----189----1----3.4
10----4----412----2----4.3
06----4----474----2----4.3
18----4----450----4----4.3
04----4----435----4----4.3
11----3----158----6----3.3
09----4----443----7----4.3
14----4----443----8----4.3
03----4----478----9----4.3
15----4----403---10----4.2
02----3----226---11----3.2
12----4----468---12----4.1
01----4----393---13----4.1
17----3----179---14----3.1
08----4----398---15----4.1
13----4----370---16----4.1
16----5----540---17----4.8
05----5----537---18----4.7

I love it that Hole No. 7 (the "redan" par 3) is playing tough.
It's also interesting that Nos. 16 and 17 are relatively easy, whereas No. 18 is relatively tough. Would seem to set things up for an exciting conclusion.

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I'll almost guareentee that the USGA does not have any special hole locations for Sunday. Neither will they have any significant changes with tee markers to adjust due to conditions (wind, rain, etc) or move them up to encourage bold play. If the wind really picks up, they'll let nature take its course and if a hole becomes almost impossible to play, they'll just say everybody had to play the same hole, so tough. Theortically, if the weather conditions are relatively the same, they try to make the course play about the same all four days - i.e. they'll have 6 "easy" hole placements, 6 "medium"and 6 "hard" ones and simply rotate the holes that have the "easy", "medium" and "hard" locations on the 4 days. These pin placements were probably determined months ago and will not change, unless the greens become so stressed out (and these greens are already pretty stressed out in some spots) that the "preferred" location isn't viable. I bet the Supt. is praying for some rain, although you won't get him to admit it publicly! The PGA Tour will make adjustments during the week and will place tee markers significantly different if they want to encourage golfers to try to drive a par 4 or move markers up on a par 5 on the weekend to have more excitement. Same thing with the pin placements - they have a pretty good idea where the pins will be before the event, but will change if they want to encourage bold play. The Masters just does whatever they want and seemed to have purposely set more accessable hole locations on Sunday to give us the easily on of the best finishes in a major I have seen. The one thing I have noticed, is that I don't remember seeing any hole locations just 3 paces from the edges at Shinecock. They don't seem to be as "tucked" as I've seen on the Tour this year. Anyone else notice this?

Wow, look at Phil and Shigeki on the 7th hole. Phil made double and Shigeki got his first shot on the green but putted his second off and made bogey.

greenguy, it would make sense that the Masters does whatever they want and that set it up for an exciting finish. I definitely don't think we'll be seeing a lot of birdies like we did at the back 9 on the Masters but hopefully, it'll still be really exciting.

greenguy,

You can't have hole locations three paces from the edge with the severe slopes on Shinnecock's greens. Did you hear where the USGA said the seventh green was "accidently" rolled this morning? That hole was almost unplayable and I look for a change there for the final round.

Yeah, No. 7 green looked unfair today (Saturday). And then they started rolling it shortly after the last group played through. I don't understand that, but then again I'm ignorant about course maintenance.

Supposed to be sunny and 71 degrees tomorrow. Haven't heard about the wind.