golfrewind.com

"If respect for our opponents, for the rules and spirit of the game, and for development of moral virtues such as civility and self-control are important values, then golf is an ethical model we should cherish. Golf should really be considered an ethical model for other sports.

We should try to emulate it, not only in athletics but perhaps also in education, where honor codes need to be respected, and especially in politics, where the practice of respect for our opponent seems to be in danger of extinction."

Some of you need to read this several times and try to understand. It is a GENTLEMENS sport-it is not hockey or football.Friends can banter in a friendly game but to distract a pro
from making a good shot is disrepectfull.

michael,

I never said I didn't want it to be a gentleman's sport. My whole original point here was that the fact that golfers "demand" quiet feeds the perception that golfers are far more delicate than other athletes, and feeds the perception that it is a sport for stuck-up elite types.

Whether that perception is fair or true or not is not my main argument. My main argument is that the way the golfers make the crowds act only reinforces the stereotype, instead of destroy it. I think that golf could go a long way toward eliminating the stereotype by allowing the crowds to act more like crowds.

The respectfulness can still be enforced, no one should be allowed to jeer or heckle, no one should be allowed to be intentionally distracting, but people should be able to talk to one another and with the background of talking, camera noises wouldn't be an issue either. Almost all sports venues (football, baseball, hockey) etc. do throw unruly crowd members out.

I backed up my argument by citing several other sports where similar difficulty to golf is occurring, and yet the crowds in these sports aren't being demanded to be quiet. This is my only argument, that the demanding of quiet helps reinforce the perception that Chavez and others have of golf being bourgeois and elitist.

michael, maybe you should go back and read my comments several times and try to understand what I am saying. I never once endorsed crowds being disrespectful or intentionally distracting -- I have made it very clear several time as a matter of fact -- but I have continuously said that a crowd should be able to act like a crowd like in other sports.

This has been an interesting thread and I'd like to thank the participants for keeping it relatively civil...I personally feel it hasn't gotten out of hand because we're all golfers and, like the author of the article, have a natural respect for another's right to a differing opinion. Here's mine.

First, I was under the impression that golf galleries in fact do make a certain amount of background noise. Yes, they're expected to be relatively quiet but I question whether they're ever absolutely quiet. Today's galleries, particularly our American galleries, are nowhere near as quiet as those of the distant past, imo. The only time most pros gets really ticked is when the cameras go off at the top of the backswing or if people are moving around behind the target, which I think is reasonable. I mean, does anyone honestly think the stands at the 16th at Scottsdale get completely quiet before the ball is struck? C'mon, people are breathing, shuffling, grunting...we're human beings, after all. Rooting for and heckling players is a different matter, of course...I think back to that movie "The Greatest Game Ever Played" and the galleries certainly rooted for their man back then, whether it was Ouimet, Vardon or Ray. But heckling played no part of it. Heckling, however, has been an accepted part of baseball, basketball, football, at least the American versions, since their inception...sorry Bignose, I don't buy thatI can only speak about American fans, but they are expected to heckle the pitcher, batter, ump, etc. and not to is deemed, at least to some, to be un-American. This even applies to the sandlot versions. There's all kinds of trash talking going on at any pickup basketball game from backyard "horse" to playground matches on the concrete slab. I won't go so far as to say that this behavior is exclusively American (look at Aussie rules football fans, soccer fans worldwide, Rugby fans, etc.) but it does seem that American sports fans want to take trash talk to every sport. That, to me, is unfortunate. Of course, in college and the pros, there are limits to how much heckling is allowed. Baseball fans can get so unruly as to be escorted off the premises, basketball fans aren't allowed to wave their "thunder sticks" behind the backboard during a free throw any more (I think), and even football fans can get so loud that the opposing QB can't call the snap, resulting in a penalty for the home team. Like I say, this behavior isn't exclusively American but, imo, it's particularly American. American fans want to get involved, be a part of the outcome, live vicariously through the players. I think this is where "get indahole!" truly comes from...if the ball does go in "da" hole, somehow that guy's gonna feel like he had something to do with it.

Ok, next point...
Fileygolfer's points are valid, imo...despite the noise, rooting, heckling pro athletes in team sports get paid, win or lose...golfers don't. Introducing endorsements into the argument corrupts it, imo...all pro athletes get endorsements and have sponsors but we're only speaking about the rewards of the competition itself...league minimums are still more than nothing, which is what golfers take home if they miss the cut. That fact, in itself, merits consideration for the golfer plying his trade.
Again, Filey makes a valid argument and, again, you corrupt it, imo...yes, golf balls, baseballs, hockey pucks can all kill...but aren't baseball fans protected from foul balls behind the plate with fencing?...aren't hockey fans protected from the puck with shatterproof glass?...where's that protection for golf galleries? I submit that golf galleries are bound to pay more attention than hockey or baseball fans, if for no other reason than they are unprotected in a pastoral setting, not protected in a park or a rink. That said, galleries have chosen, even back in Vardon's day, to put themselves in harm's way in order to get a better view of the action...that's their choice and, in so doing, exempt the player from any responsibility if they get hit...besides, they're too close for "fore" to do any good anyway. But part of the agreement there is that if they want that close a look then they're obliged to stand still and keep quiet. Again, I don't think nowadays that galleries, even in that tight, get completely silent so as to "hear a pin drop"...I don't think galleries downrange would actually be able to hear "fore" nowadays anyway...that's why they have those guys with the placards indicating with a wave which direction a drive is headed...noise levels at the golf course are generally on the rise and I see no trend to indicate that changing any time soon.

Ok, one more...
For the most part, the examples you cite don't involve any special equipment...notable exceptions would be the pole vault and javelin but even in those cases the athletes aren't aiming at anything in particular with the possible exception of the pole vaulter aiming at the stop. At any rate, even though track and field events are usually an individual endeavor, they usually entail only using one's body to compete, not with a stick and ball. That's certainly the case with boxing and wrestling and I would even submit that those are not "solitary sports" because I don't think that boxing or wrestling without an opponent would render much competition...same goes for martial arts. You'll notice that in another sport involving a stick and ball, tennis, even though it requires an opponent, precluding it from "solitary" status, it is still the custom to require relative quiet, at least during the service, and often during the entire volley. Why do you suppose that is? Strictly custom? Have you noticed that tennis matches, especially American ones, have become increasingly vocal and contentious? Hmmm.

As I've said, I'm not so sure golfers "demand absolute silence"...in my experience relative quiet usually suffices...no sudden jerks, bangs, grunts, screams, yells, cameras, phones...I haven't heard too much complaint about background noise which I would consider "regular crowd noise" that surely happens regularly. If you're teeing off near the clubhouse where there's bound to be some normal movement and background noise you can't expect patrons to stand perfectly still and quiet before each and every tee shot and I've not heard many (won't say "any") complain about that.

One last thing I'd like to address...golf as a solitary endeavor. Unlike team sports, I feel that golf is truly an individual pursuit, at it's core it's the golfer vs. par and really, ultimately, it's the golfer vs. him or herself. Is golf the only solitary pursuit?...no, you could say running, cycling, hiking, climbing, etc. are solitary pursuits as well and often are quite quiet in nature. And even though those involve concentration and focus, especially with climbing, they don't involve a stick and a ball. Introducing those factors increase the difficulty of the pursuit, imo...I won't argue the difficulty of golf vs. other sports because I don't think it serves any productive end in this discussion. Just suffice it to say that golf is a fairly difficult pursuit that requires concentration and focus...and at it's "grass roots" golf involves one person which, at least at it's birth, meant that it was pursued in relative quiet and solitude, save for the occasional bleating sheep. I believe ultimately this is where the notion of expecting relative quiet during a shot derives. Standing still and being quiet during someone's golf shot is a time-honored tradition that I believe in. It's considerate behavior and in so doing it offers one's opponent a fair chance at competing...now, everyone plays the same course and I suppose the argument may extend to say that everyone has to endure the same crowd noise. Unfortunately, these days, the sheep are bleating much louder.

Shade

"Everyone plays the same course and I suppose the argument may extend to say that everyone has to endure the same crowd noise. Unfortunately, these days, the sheep are bleating much louder."quote by shaderunner

This is what the original poster was talking about, the crowds at the Presidents cup were not fair to the International team,They heckled and bleated and embarassed us more so with our visiting opponents.It is a GENTLEMENS game, it is not how loud you can banter or bleat or make foolery in front of the whole world on television.Everyone was watching, Does the whole world have to know how drunk and rude Americans can be?Why is this so difficult to understand? We are supposed to be nice to each other.Would it have been fair for the American team to have won because we heckled the opponents so much that we threw them off their game?

Is this still going on?

***? who cares, most people are respectful and the ones who aren't get their ***** thrown out. Geography has little to do with stupid behavior.

What I would find to be interesting is what an ACTUAL tour pro would have to say about this. A "NOONAN"right at the putt is one thing - totally juvenile, and should be escorted off of the premesis. However, throughout history, fairways have been jam packed with spectators, and there had to be noise. In the scene from Bagger Vance, Bobby Jones goes into a trance like focus at the tee box. There is noise, but the the way the shot was filmed, he hears nothing, only a focus on the ball.
I have played in many lod, obnoxious stadiums and can honestly say I can'nt remember the crowds, the cheerleaders etc. Just my coaches, teammates and other players in the heat of battle.
Do real pro's hear this riff raff? Or is it just part of the zone where even if a black gorilla ran across the fairway he would not even notice because he is so focused in the zone. Walking down the fairway between shots maybe, but then again he is talking to his caddy, lining up the shot, picturing clubs ,lies, 3/4 swing, 1/2 swing, lie of the ball. I'll bet half the time some yahoo blurts something out if you asked them later they would be like "What?'" Never even noticed. These folks play 100's/1000's of tournamentsand I can almost guarantee that 90% of what is being discussed in this thread they never even notice.

Yes it is ND because it is a hot topic and people do care. As Michael correctly states it is a gentlemans game and imo players deserve respect when concentrating on a shot. Get rid of the yahoo's who make pests of themselves. We are not saying we don't want artmosphere and noise, we just want people to respect the player.

I ask , what is wrong with a bit of silence while a player addresses his ball ? Surely the player deserves that respect.

Tour Pro's have different outlooks, some are "In the zone" from arriving on the 1st Tee to holing out on the 18th (Faldo). Others turn it on and off (Trevino) and the odd few find it very difficult to concentrate at times (Monty). Each individual has their own way, and that is why some aren't bothered about a bit of noise while others demand quiet. Tiger doesn't get on with cameras, but other things don't effect him.
To each their own.

My 2 cents: Golf is a game of respect and etiquette, and the fans can't accept and respect that, than they shouldn't be there. The PGA should have strickter croud control measures.

Also, keep in mind that idiots are present in all areas of the world, and know no geographic boundaries. There are just as many idiots, fools, and uneducated people in one country as in the next, and the generalization of American golf fans does nothing for your cause.

I am happy that in these discussions it is 'The Crowd' that is talked about and not 'American Golf Fans'.
Here in the UK, our Soccer teams have some hooligan followers, they go to matches to cause trouble, not watch them. Thankfully Golf will never see these guys.

My point is... that when it occurs the people are thrown out. There is absolutely nothing anyone or any agency can do about it. If you amass several hundred or several thousand people together rest assured there will be idiots amongst them. Would any of you suggest a complete back ground check for each person entering the gates? When people misbehave they are thrown out. What else can they do? Most golf fans understand general etiquette. The Ryder Cup is a bit different atmosphere but I am pretty sure no one here has a better plan than the agency putting on the tournament. It ***** but there is little point in discussing a matter that has no viable solution.

You are correct there is no viable solution and we do not pretend there will be one. But surely people will get the message if fans are continually evicted. The authorities can put in place warning signs at the course and print a warning on tickets. This is an education process that can be easily adopted.

Again we are dealing with a vast minority here, but this minority spoil it for both the players and the image of golf. Let's try and get rid of them !

I agree with you about the idiots, but i don't think golf requires dead silence. The hardest skill in sports is to hit a baseball at 90mph and moving. Hitting a ball standing still is nowhere near as difficult. Courtesy is expected but if A-Rod can hit a 400 ft homerun with the crowd screaming, Tiger should be able to hit a 300yd drive with a little noise.

Sorry but I disagree. To compare a baseball hit with a golf ball hit, well to say the least, they are so far apart in action & technique. The control of a golf club and a baseball bat are very different. A golfer must be so precise in his measurement of distance and accuracy, whereas a baseball connection is no where near as precise. Tiger COULD hit a ball 300 yards with noise if this was the 'norm', but it isn't. Golf is supposed to be played in a quiet atmosphere and a sudden noise of a camera, car horn, distant clapping etc. is a instant distraction. Very hard to compare both sports because they are totally different imo. You can certainly compare baseball with say cricket as both are played with noise at a constant.